SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

Mainsheet behavior

5K views 22 replies 13 participants last post by  albrazzi 
#1 ·
A client bought this boat 32' Beneteau First 32 Racer/Cruiser 1983.

I took him out on it last night and I noticed something and want to make sure I'm telling him the right thing.

The mainsheet is sheeted to the bridge deck and even as tight as possible, cam cleat only, no winch it is nowhere trimmed as tight as it should be.

It seems as though in order to be trimmed even close to close hauled you have to use the traveler.

Do I have this right? Most boats I teach on we don't bother with the traveler for beginner students.
 
#2 ·
By "trimmed closed to close hauled" do you mean boom at centerline?

How many parts in main sheet tackle? Are the main sheet blocks good low friction bearing blocks?
 
#12 ·
Yes I mean boom at centerline.

I will take a picture of the setup next time I'm on the boat.

It was raced so I assumed it was rigged OK, maybe not though.
 
#3 ·
Your description might be a bit better, or a photo might help. However, in light to medium air the traveler might have to come above center to trim the main.

Mainsheets on the bridge deck are longer than those on the cabin top, so the angle from the center of the traveler will lead to the boom being further out than on a traveler on the cabin top unless you can pull the mainsheet in so taught it has no stretch. Maybe I could be explaining this part better, but I'm short on time :) i.e.: It's not completely odd to use the traveler to bring the boom towards the centerline of the boat.

I have never seen a bridge deck traveler lead to a winch. Normally, purchase is enough to move the boom.

When you say 'bridge deck', I assume you mean in the cockpit, forward of the helm, aft of the companionway.

Are you using a vang?
Is it possible the jib is over trimmed?
Outhaul trimmed?
Topping lift eased?
Main halyard trimmed?
Old baggy sail?
Battens installed?
Hell, is it even the correct main, designed for that boat?
 
#16 ·
Are you using a vang?
Is it possible the jib is over trimmed?
Outhaul trimmed?
Topping lift eased?
Main halyard trimmed?
Old baggy sail?
Battens installed?
Hell, is it even the correct main, designed for that boat?
This is a great list.

Most of them I took care of but you are right about the sail being aged.
 
#4 ·
RG, above, is correct. I'd add that *all* conventional travellers must be moved above the centerline to center the boom. As RG says a cabin top traveller may not need to be as much as a brigdedeck or transom sheeted rig, but it must be up some distance.

I would guess that on a 32 foot boat with a bridgedeck traveller in a nice sailing breeze the boom-end would indeed be low by 6 to 12 inches unless the traveller is raised.

On proper boats, with headsails, in typical conditions, it is necessary to center the boom to give respectable pointing performance. Dinghies are an exception, as are overloaded cruisers, and heavy air of course.

My feeling is that the vang increases the need for raising the traveller. Because the tension, and therefore the centering force, of the mainsheet is reduced.
 
#5 ·
A client bought this boat 32' Beneteau First 32 Racer/Cruiser 1983.

I took him out on it last night and I noticed something and want to make sure I'm telling him the right thing.

The mainsheet is sheeted to the bridge deck and even as tight as possible, cam cleat only, no winch it is nowhere trimmed as tight as it should be.

It seems as though in order to be trimmed even close to close hauled you have to use the traveler.

Do I have this right? Most boats I teach on we don't bother with the traveler for beginner students.
Wouldn't you make adjustments and then observe the behavior of the boat (speed and leeway)? Even a better way to teach.

I've sailed for 30 years and this is still how I learn to sail an unfamiliar boat. Rules of thumb are only that. Sea state, condition of sail, trim of other sails, bottom and weight all change things.
 
#6 ·
I think with a properly shaped Main, trying to use it all in moderate winds fall off a bit and get all the tells flying with the main sheet then as you head up move the traveler. Moving the traveler lets all the tells work and pulling the boom to centerline if it can even be done without the traveler being high will kill the top tells . Hard on the wind the mainsheet opens up the top of the sail the traveler just moves the boom over. Think about it as moving the boom in two different directions even though the sheet does both. Make sure the vang is not interfering as well.

That's the basics, you may have the same problem I have now that no matter what I do hard up wind its hard to get everything right because the sail is so old.
 
#7 ·
The Beneteau is as generic as they come. Rules of thumb will get 95% of the maximum pointing. For beginner students, and most recreational sailors a few simple rules will go a long ways. Here is the applicable one:

In a nice sailing breeze, one that moves the boat without putting the rail in the water, center the boom and make the top batten point straight back. Use whatever sail controls make that happen: Sheet, traveller, vang. Simple, now worry about the far more important headsail trim.

Boom not centered? Top batten down? You are not close hauled, you are reaching.

Lighter winds and heavier winds are different.

If the sail is old...well...get real...buy a new sail....until then tighten the halyard and cunningham as much as you can stand.
 
#8 ·
Hey,

I don't know that type of boat but it sounds like the boat is not rigged properly. What is the power ratio of the tackle? I would think you need at least 6:1. Are there cabin top winches and line clutches that are empty?

I agree that for max performance the traveler will need to be raised to get the boom on center. However I would think the main sheet would have sufficient purchase to get it within a few inches of center, with the traveler centered.

Regarding a previous post about bridgedeck traveler and main sheet led to a winch, my 2002 came from the factory that way. The traveler was (i have moved it) located on the bridgedeck right in front of the companionway, and the mainsheet was led to a winch on the cabin top.

Barry
 
#11 ·
Hey,

I don't know that type of boat but it sounds like the boat is not rigged properly. What is the power ratio of the tackle? I would think you need at least 6:1. Are there cabin top winches and line clutches that are empty?

I agree that for max performance the traveler will need to be raised to get the boom on center. However I would think the main sheet would have sufficient purchase to get it within a few inches of center, with the traveler centered.

Regarding a previous post about bridgedeck traveler and main sheet led to a winch, my 2002 came from the factory that way. The traveler was (i have moved it) located on the bridgedeck right in front of the companionway, and the mainsheet was led to a winch on the cabin top.

Barry
Next time I'm on the boat I will take a picture.
 
#10 ·
Speaking entirely from a novice point of view.....

I was out in my 19 foot WWP(roller jib furling, boom jack, two reefing points), with an experienced sailor who has only ever sailed his 30 foot Pearson(no furling jib, no reefing points, traveler but no boom vang)..... and his unfamiliarity with my boat made him as much a novice as I am. He claims his Pearson is clumsy at tacking, so was quite surprised at the agility of my small boat.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Many of the Beneteau boats of this era were rigged with "german-style sheeting" which used only 2 winches mounted to the aft end of the coach roof.
One winch plus (a gang of) of cam/levered operated cleats and a single 'endless' sheet are used to control the jib.; One winch, plus (a gang) of cam/levered cleats and a single 'endless' sheet is used to control the main.
With this "german-style" sheeting arrangement, typically once the sheet, etc. is used the sheet, etc. is totally released/removed from the winch after closing its cleat. For the control of the main and traveller, all controls (including the main halyard) are from a single winch and its 'gang' of lever operated cleats. The traveller control line is usually from a single 'loop' with both ends of a single control line ultimately attached to the traveller car.

Usually with this type of "german style sheeting" set-up, one will find that there are NO sail, etc. controls 'anywhere' in/near the cockpit other than the aft end of the coach roof; and, the cockpit will be designed with HUGE opening seat lockers (adjacent to and just in front of the helm) that 'lid' includes the inside wall and top portion of the cockpit coaming .... and one simply cannot install a winch, etc. onto a (huge) opening seat locker (that includes 'most' of the cockpit coaming).
Many times with such a 'sheeting' arrangement, a double block is attached to the clew of the jib/genoa to increase the mechanical advantage of the coach roof winch; but, an 'endless' jib sheet isn't used and the 'ends' of the sheet are 'run back' and attached to a becket on the fairlead cars.
 
#15 ·
Thank you all for your comments.

Some of you have confirmed what I surmised, that some boats are designed to be more reliant in the traveler than others to get proper sail shape.
 
#17 ·
I would say that I agree that in most light to moderate conditions the traveler needs to be above center in order to center the boom, and have proper sail shape ( Telltales flying and upper batten parallel to the boom or a tick to leeward of the boom.)

You may not be as conscious of this on other boats but if the traveler is centered and the boom is close to the centerline then the sail is probably way over trimmed.

With bridge deck mounted travelers the ratio of the traveler is often just sufficient to bring the sail all the way in when sailing in light to moderate conditions, but not enough for heavier winds. At that point the sheet is lead to the windward jib winch and played from there.

There is a reason that this is done this way. The idea is that there is less friction and less line to struggle with on a mark rounding from deep wind angles to a beat.

Jeff
 
#19 ·
Pictures as promised

If anyone knows how to keep the program from rotating the pictures let me know.
 

Attachments

#20 ·
Hey,

Thanks for the pics. I can see that the topping lift is off. It appears that there just isn't enough purchase. Is that a 4:1 or 5:1 system? I think you need at least 6:1 to get enough power. I sailed on a friend's J29 the other day. He has a similar system with 6:1 power and that is just barely enough. i bet the main on the Bene is at least as big as on the J.

good luck,
Barry
 
#21 ·
Yes, you very much need to pull the traveller up to center the boom. Especially so in the light conditions pictured, as another poster wrote, because trying to do it with the mainsheet will surely over trim the leech. Boom centered. Top batten pointing straight back....except wind looks really light so maybe that top batten would be down just a tiny bit. Depends...some boats do a little better overtrimmed there.

Other un-asked-for comments, heh:

The main halyard could use a little more.

Something is goofy with the foot...or maybe just not enough wind to straighten it out.

Some little line is hanging down off the leech. If that swings out and catches on the backstay during a gybe you will be driving to the sail loft.

What is the red line at the end of the boom for?

Do you like that strop on the upper mainsheet block? I raced, only once, on a boat that had that same setup. The block flailing around during a maneuver was going to injure someone. Whats the purpose? To save $40 of mainsheet?
 
#23 ·
+1 on that wire rope on the mail sheet. On most Gybes I will help the boom over by hand so it doesn't snap. In real heavy conditions of course I sheet in then ease for the same reason. Wouldn't want a wire thre for even more reasons than that.
With a few minor drawbacks I like my two speed sheeting (cascading), less line than a 6 or 8-1 and leverage when you need it and another reason to get the blocks as far apart as possible.
 
#22 ·
Assuming the sails fit, and that the wind was reasonable (you gave no guidance on speed) yes take the traveller up.

A rule of thumb in moderate wind (5-15 kts) is to have the top batten and the boom parallel, using the vang/sheet tension to achieve this, position the maximum draft as far aft as you can without excessive leech hooking with the downhaul/cunningham/halyard and set the draft as deep as you can without excessive heeling and backwinding by the outhaul.

The traveller is used to position the boom to keep the boat on its feet, reduce weather helm and achieve good flow in the slot. your Leech tell tales (one per batten) should all be flowing.

When you have wind shear, or when you have excessive wind, you slack off on the vang a bit, and let the top twist off, after flattening with cunningham and outhaul.

Reef and repeat.

s
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top