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post #21 of 33 Old 06-06-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog
"$45 on fuel last season and how I have about six gallons left still"
My stinkpot friends point out that the wind might be free, but catching it isn't. Their response, to my telling them I had just bought and new genoa and main sail was: "You could buy a lot of fuel for that...."
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post #22 of 33 Old 06-06-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idiens
My stinkpot friends point out that the wind might be free, but catching it isn't. Their response, to my telling them I had just bought and new genoa and main sail was: "You could buy a lot of fuel for that...."
Some of the boats I'm talking about burn 20-30 gallons or more an hour. With fuel at $4+ per gallon... it wouldn't take too many hours for them to pay for my sails in fuel costs.

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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
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—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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post #23 of 33 Old 06-07-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog
Some of the boats I'm talking about burn 20-30 gallons or more an hour. With fuel at $4+ per gallon... it wouldn't take too many hours for them to pay for my sails in fuel costs.
Some sailing boats have bigger sails too, so you ought to compare like-with-like in some way.
So take a motor boat with the same tonnage and average speed as your tri for comparison. Include all your sails and the life that they actually have. Or put another way. Take off your mast and sails. Work out their value, how much fuel does that buy for your engine?
In my case, my engine drives my monohull at the same hull limited speed as my sails (about 8 knots). I actually calculate an average speed of 5 knots when cruising to allow for low or head winds. My engine drives my boat at 5 knots using about 3 litres/hour.
Just approximately, if I had to replace all my sails, boom, mast and rigging, it would cost maybe 40-50k euros. At your fuel prices, of about 0.73 euro/litre, that should take me about 100k nm or some 20k propulsive hours. I would not expect my sails (or my engine) to last that long. But replacing my engine is cheaper than replacing the wind propulsion system.
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post #24 of 33 Old 06-07-2007
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Idiens,
Do you know of Steve Dashew ? He's an American naval architect and author who has built and extensively cruised a number of very lovely yachts, renowned for their inovative designs and systems. His latest boat is power and his claim is that because of it's design it will cost no more than his old sailing boat to run. Mind you that was before the current run on oil prices which might have stuffed up his calculations just a mite.
You can read more if you are interested at SetSail.com: The Ultimate Sailing & Cruising Reference. I would note that his last sailing boat was something like 80' feet loa so not exactly a pocket cruiser.
Cheers

Andrew B

“Life is a trick, and you get one chance to learn it.”
― Terry Pratchett, Nation

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post #25 of 33 Old 06-07-2007
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Idiens—

Tonnage and average speed aren't really valid methods of comparison either. A multihull doesn't compare to a monohull in a straight off comparison. My boat can do 15 knots under sail, but only 6.5 knots under power.

Of course, the larger the boat, the more expensive the sails are going to be. And with monohulls, the fuel prices and engine sizes don't scale as quickly. Many large sailboats only have relatively small engines—50 HP is pretty large for most sailboats. These boats have 300-400 HP.

The comparison I am making is based on what each person prefers to own. It was never meant as as a straight comparison. They have planing hull, high-speed power boats for fishing... I have a 28' trimaran for cruising—totally different beasties to begin with.

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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
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her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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post #26 of 33 Old 06-07-2007
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Lets put it this way, when they fill up there boat, it doesn't last for years like a sail can!
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post #27 of 33 Old 06-07-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw
You can read more if you are interested at SetSail.com: The Ultimate Sailing & Cruising Reference.
Thanks for the reference tdw, I had not seen that one before.
I am not averse to stinkpots in the right context, a sailing boat is not much use on the canals here.
I can't find it now, but someone here gave a reference to an Ozzie couple's cruising site. They use a big converted motor cruiser and argue the plus side of cruising under power.
I think the secret is size. To cross an ocean under power needs a lot of fuel capacity, so a big boat. Whereas with sails, a much smaller craft can be used.

Found it: Passagemaker cruising under power in Southeast Asia

Last edited by Idiens; 06-07-2007 at 04:14 PM.
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post #28 of 33 Old 06-07-2007
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Sailing = going nowhere very slowly at great expense.

I think a mile cost about the same either made under power or under sail in similar size vessel.
A powerboat does not need lots of expensive "extras": heavy keel with its drag, solar or wind generators to fill the batteries, mast and rigging, ... They can also travel faster in calm conditions, so it is good for a lot of people.

But than I think about the pure joy of turning the engine off, listening only to the wind and waves, gentle heel and smooth easy ride, ... Joy of mastering the wind, ...
Come on! Do I need to say more on sailnet? We are all hooked.

I did a lot of windsurfing, fair amount of dinghy sailing on laser, but I never ever had any desire to own a powerboat. Once I tried sailing there was no return. Will I change my mind ? Who knows. I read a lot about Steve and Linda Dashew some time ago (his designs are way above my budget) and they opened my eyes - maybe there will be time for power boat in the future - after I am too old to sail.
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post #29 of 33 Old 06-08-2007
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Hi Tomaz, good to see you back, where have you been?

Yes, that silence after the engine is switched off - magic. I took my dedicated stinkpot friends for their first sail. They noticed it too. But their comment was: "But we haven't slowed down!"

I will declare old-fart status when I an unable to crank winches and sell my sail for a canal barge stinkpot.
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post #30 of 33 Old 06-08-2007
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Having both a sailboat and a powerboat (does that make me BI?), I have to say I enjoy them both. However, for completely different reasons; the sailboat (34' pilothouse-6 knots @ 0-1/2gph) is used for cruising trips here in the NW and daysailing, the powerboat (28' ex-commercial crabber-18/20 knots @ 6-7gph) is transportation, supply runs, and used for crabbing and prawning. I don't understand picking a power boat as a cruiser, I would prefer a sailboat (hull) for it's inherent seaworthiness even if I couldn't sail it. We end up doing quite a bit of motoring here in the fickle summer winds and narrow channels with strong currents, but nothing compares to gliding along, silently, enjoying the scenery while mentally being challenged with doing a good job of sailing. Good sailors make it look easy to run downwind wing on wing, or tack through a narrow pass, but the rest of us sailors know it's challenging and rewarding to do it well. Sitting on the flybridge with the throttle set and the autopilot on that's tied to the chartplotter route just wouldn't give me the same feeling of accomplishment(being of Scottish descent I'd have a hard time forgetting I'm burning 15-30gph too). They are both boating, just different.

John
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