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post #21 of 35 Old 06-20-2007
Learning the HARD way...
 
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Hijack Alert!

Just to flush out the picture upload issue...
When you try to upload an image with the "Attachment Key," you get the following table:
Filetype.........Max Filesize.......Max Width.........Max Height
.bmp-------- 49.8 KB---------- 800-------------- 600
.gif---------- 97.7 KB---------- 800-------------- 600
.jpe--------- 97.7 KB---------- 800-------------- 600
.jpeg-------- 97.7 KB---------- 800-------------- 600
.jpg--------- 97.7 KB---------- 800-------------- 600

I edited the above (georgous, hi-def, true color) picture to the following formats with no luck:
Filetype.......Filesize ........ Width .........Height
.jpg--------- 13KB---------720-------- 540
.gif--------- 4KB--------- 600--------- 450
.bmp-------- 24KB--------- 250--------- 188
.jpg--------- 10KB--------- 450--------- 388
.gif---------- 2KB--------- 450--------- 388

Finally, after banging hy head against the wall 6 or 7 times, I stopped...

Lessons learned
  • do not upload pictures to forum. Upload elsewhere, and link
  • Sailnet does not like to show info in tabular form. Hence, my dots and dashes above.


Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion.....

Ed
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post #22 of 35 Old 06-20-2007
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The "vessel restricted in ability to maneuver" applies ONLY to work-related restrictions. A yacht cannot be in that category, to my knowledge.

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post #23 of 35 Old 06-20-2007
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If the wind was strong enough, and he had gone into irons, it is possible that he would have ended up cutting off the other boat's attempt to pass astern of him, as he blew/drifted down on the second boat.

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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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post #24 of 35 Old 06-20-2007
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A Sailing vessel hoved to. Sheets secured, no real steerage way to speak of or even consider. Now another vessel is approaching whose CPA is extremely close to a collision is eminent.
I would see the 1st sailing vessel as "Not Under Command." and is the stand on vessel don't matter which side the wind is on. And the 2nd vessel should be the give way vessel.
But this looks like a situation that may have to be enlightened on in an Admiralty court. (Which is a Federal Court here in the States).
For even those of us who are professionals, are not lawyers and our interpretations of the Rules may not be quite correct in this matter.
Dang it!! the lawyers now have another way to feed off of us.

One way to tighten your position on this. The Sailing vessel that is "hoved to" hoists (where best seen) two black balls in a vertical line, to indicate that they are "Not Under Command. This would give you the legal grounds to stand on if the person in the 2nd boat tries to barge through.
Now the next question is: Do you and Does the captain(?) of the 2nd boat, know and understand ColRegs and Inland Rules of the Road. Ignorance is not bliss here, but is highly dangerous. The second question about the 2nd boat is how do they react under close quarters situations?

CPA = Closest Point of Approach.
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post #25 of 35 Old 06-20-2007 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boasun
Now the next question is: Do you and Does the captain(?) of the 2nd boat, know and understand ColRegs and Inland Rules of the Road. Ignorance is not bliss here, but is highly dangerous. The second question about the 2nd boat is how do they react under close quarters situations?
Well as I said I know the basic rules but in this instance I wasn't quite sure what the rule was. On one hand I thought I was still considered to be "under sail"...but on the other whether or not I was the stand on or give way vessel I was in a position where there wasn't really anything I could have done to avoid a collision other than hope that the approaching vessel made a maneuver to avoid me...which thankfully he did and everyone went home safe and happy (especially me since his boat was significantly larger than mine!!!)
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post #26 of 35 Old 06-20-2007
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"there wasn't really anything I could have done to avoid a collision"

Well....there you go! That's the definition of a vessel not under command.

Bill
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post #27 of 35 Old 06-20-2007
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Talking

since we are on the topic of right of way, I often see people windsurfing. Are they just another sailboat as far as the rules are concerned? I've tried to ram them but so far they have been too quick. . Also, I see many kayaks and those rowing club boats, where do they fall in? thanks.
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post #28 of 35 Old 06-20-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors
"there wasn't really anything I could have done to avoid a collision"

Well....there you go! That's the definition of a vessel not under command.

Bill
LOL... yup...that's true.

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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
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her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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post #29 of 35 Old 06-20-2007
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Still, betcha dollars to doughnuts that this was an overtaking situation, with heaved-to boat making nearly no headway, and converging boat (which our poster saw later on when he was abeam) actually came up from more than 2 points abaft the beam of our guy. Too much speed differential, I'd think, for it to be otherwise.

That said, it ain't too much work to move the tiller a little to avoid a close-quarters situation, whether you're burdened or privileged. Life's too short...

Last edited by nolatom; 06-20-2007 at 06:53 PM.
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post #30 of 35 Old 06-21-2007
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Not under Command's definition is met, regardless of the lack of dayshapes displayed. The "give-way" vessel is indeed over-taking and, should they have any doubt as to that status they are to assume they are over-taking.

SailingDog makes a quite common, and therefore understandable, error in his explanation of Restricted in Ability. The Colregs are to be read and interpreted EXACTLY as written. One cannot withdraw a phrase or term and apply one's own definition or applicability to it. Anotherwords, "Restricted in Ability" is exactly what the rule says it is. It cannot be expanded or extrapolated to more than what the definition says it is. As Bill points out, the rule would only apply if there was something inherent in the nature of the work or navigation of the boat that made her unable to comply with the normal rules. The word "work" has tremendous significance. NUC is the appropriate rule, in essence granting the same privelages.

I know this sounds somewhat nit-picky but that is exactly what the court proceedings in these matters end up being. Most convictions in Maritime Board of Inquiries are a result of misinterpretation of status. Had collision resulted, the other boat would have been found responsible due to his requirement to assume an over-taking status. Furthermore, the over-taking situation cannot morph into a crossing situation, regardless of bearing shift.

The rules, as written, are very sparse. The emphasis is on determining your status within the strict guidelines of the rules. After that, your responsibilities are fairly obvious. My post under "signalling" in the seamanship forum gives an example of how all of this can play out in court.

If you read the rules carefully you will note many interesting things, such as, not all fishing boats, who are fishing, are "fishing boats" as defined by the rules. A fishing boat, not displaying the lights and shapes for a fishing boat, cannot be assumed to be "fishing' as defined by the rules, and therefore does not have the rights of a fishing boat.

It is actually clearer than it sounds if you read the rules. Which is basically the point-you must be well read, with understanding, in the rules to be able to act correctly. A set of flash-cards and what you "think" the rules mean will get you in trouble.

“Scientists are people who build the Brooklyn Bridge and then buy it.”
Wm. F. Buckley, Jr.
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