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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Learning to Sail
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  #21  
Old 07-16-2007
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Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice
Lets see if I can explain this...

Some boats are designed to have the Genoa work outside the shrouds, whilst others are designed to have it work inside the shrouds.

At the same time, some boats have an open pullpit (correct name?), while others have a closed one.

Lets start with the open pullpits.

On open pull pit bows, the sail can work either inside and/or outside the lifelines, depending on the tack, and the open pull pit allows you to move the sail out. Why? some of the performance boats have the foot of the genoas so low in the deck that they could never work outside the life lines unless there is an opening forward to allow it to be moved outside, however, as they sail under certain conditions one might need to move the sail to the outside of the life lines.

Here you can see an open pull in the white boat, and a closed pull pit in the blue boat.



Bellow is a photo of a boat that has an open pull pit to allow the sail to be on the out side for reaching. As you can see the sail is outside the life lines.



The next photo shows how an idiot bowman that does not pay attention, allows the sail to be half in and half out. It is obvious that the sail "wants" to be outside the life lines here.



On the next photo, the same boat, this time crewed by inteligent people, has a different sail, that is much lower in the deck, and this time the sail is "working" inside the pullpit.



A closed pullpit, normally has the genoa work "above" the pullpit, to clear the life lines, and that can work on both the inside or the outside, as seen bellow...



or if the genoa foot is bellow the top of the life lines only works inside the life lines and when it needs to open more, it is "forced" to be bent over the pullpit to work outside the life lines. This happens often and I see it a lot. Nothing wrong with it, other than slight damage to the sail, but it has to be done.

Conclusion; To have a lower foot sail, like in fast boats, you need an open pullpit, or if you have a closed one, you sacrifice sail area by raising the foot above the life lines, or if the foot is low, sometimes it is foreced over and damages the sail. All good different options, chose one. Was that understandable? My English poses a problem with names sometimes, hence the photos.



Now, as far as the genoa working inside or outside the shrouds. This is more complicated..

The difference between genoas working inside and outside the shrouds.

Some performance boats, due to rating constraints and to be able to point higher, depending of the objective of the boat, as for racing, for example, need to have shorter foot and tack genoas, so that the sheets can work inside the shrouds.

This allows the tack to be nearer to the mast, closing the angle between the relative wind angle and the sail's angle of attack, allowing to point at lower angles before the genoa stalls (flaps), closes the gap between genoa and main, which works like a SLAT on an aeroplane, and accelerates the air on the leeward of the main to increase lift (pull), and also allows to have smaller genoas favoring the ratings.

These sails, obviously are limited to genoa sizes (bellow 115% to 120%) otherwise the leech touches the spreaders. (some boats, to allow a "bellied" leech, to increase sail area without affecting the rating, have curved spreaders, that allow the genoa to be brought almost to the spreaders).

Here bellow is a photo of "swept forward" spreaders. Nice!!!!! (G)



So, in this case, the sail has a smaller foot and tack, and can have the sheets work inside the shrouds. To allow for that, the genoa tracks are installed as much as possible to the center of the boat (which in this case was what limited the width of my boats cabin), having a limit there too. I also use barber haulers to help bring the tack even closer to the mast, but forget about it now, I already wrote too much...next time.

Here is a track that works inside the shrouds. As you can see they can be pretty small.







Other boats, normally on cruising boats, because performance is not a demand, these boats have larger genoas, often above 125%, and up to 150% or more and therefore, because the leech would touch the spreaders, the sheets have to work outside the shrouds. In these boats, the tracks are further aft, and are considerably larger, sometimes going back as far as the trasnsom. Or thru blocks attached to the toe rail, that may or not be adjustable back and forth.


The sheets come from the sail, thru the track then to a block aft, then into winch, as for example in the CS 36, or straight from the sheet into the track and into the winch.

Hope this was undertandable, if you have any more quastions, its gonna cost you!!! (G)

Later on I will try to post photos of the larger genoas and the tracks..gotta go now...

Last edited by Giulietta; 07-16-2007 at 01:32 PM.
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  #22  
Old 07-21-2007
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Thanks

Thanks Giulietta

Great response, can't wait for the follow up on the cruising boats.

Greg
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  #23  
Old 07-21-2007
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Great info and photos, (beautiful boat Giuletta). I struggle with this a lot. I single hand sail on a pretty busy lake, so I like to have the tack raised off the deck to improve my line of site, but I can't help think the raised sail really hurts performance.
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Old 07-21-2007
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Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice Giulietta is just really nice
OK, I don't have much time right now, and had forgotten about this, so here are the crusing boat Genoa photos.

The example here is the beautifull CS36, that belongs to my friend Sailingfool, (and is for sale, and I can attest its worth what he is asking for it). This is not exactly a pure racer its a well built fast cruiser.

Cruising boats, because pointing performance is not a primary demand, have larger genoas, often above 125%, and up to 150% or more and therefore, because the leech of these larger headsails touches the spreaders (in the front and in the tip), the sheets have to work outside the shrouds.


As you can see above, the genoa sheet is outside the shrouds, and the foot of the genoa clears the life lines. However, there are some boats, with sheets working outside the shrouds that have the genoa foot bellow the life lines, but it will be schaffing, and getting damaged everytime it passes the lige lines. To help that we install a series of rotating rings to help reduce schaff and help the genoa pass over the life lines. see bellow..


With this more common arrangment, the tracks are further aft, and are considerably larger, sometimes going back as far as the trasnsom. The sheets pass the shrouds on the outside, go thru the genoa track blocks either attached to the toe rail, or on the deck (and those may or may not be ajustable), and into the winches.

See bellow photo that shows the sheet pass the shrouds, into the block, then runs aft passes a foot block then is fed to the winch.





The sheets come from the sail, thru the track then to a block aft, then into winch, as for example in the CS 36, or straight from the sheet into the track and into the winch.



US25, it does affect performance as you have a smaller area sail, but think about this: pretty much every one has the same arrangment as you, that is pretty much everyone's performance is affected as much as yours.

Those that do not have that arrangment, are either racing hard, so don't worry with them, they will pass you any way, or spending money to repair the sails...right??

Now...even with a "shorter" sail, if you trim right and sail clean, you can still beat the crap of a "taller" foot sail...just pay attention to what you're doing.

Remember that as a boat heels, a "lower" foot genoa will start getting turbulence and will have higher turbulence than a higher sail, due to the blanket effect caused by the raised side... so, its not all gain!! Think about this.

see bellow. Remeber wind arrows are only shown to windward.


Last edited by Giulietta; 07-21-2007 at 10:10 AM.
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  #25  
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Excellent, that makes a lot of sense. You're right, I usually am able to get a lot speed even with the raised tack point, but sometimes depending on which sails up, I have a hard time get the foot tight. Even with the block nearly all the way back, the sheet angle from the clew is such that most of the "pull" is downward, so the leech is plenty tight, but the foot struggles. I even tore seam on an older mylar jib, trying to get the darn foot to stop fluttering.
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Old 07-25-2007
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I've got some more info on my sails after spending 9 days aboard mine sorting everything out after carefully reading this post.

I have also contacted Neil Pryde Sails for some ideas, and they were great! I would also suggest to talk to as many sailboat owners as you could at the marina, and inspect their yachts to see how things are rigged too. Being polite and asking lots of questions helped me like I couldn't believe. I even got a ride in another gentleman's oday 22 which was a BLAST so as I could see how easy a roller furling sail is (and he had the working jib in a fore-sail sock on a different stay, something I've never seen) I also learned that there is a significant advantage to being a singlehander and running the halyards (and as much of everything else) aft to the cockpit.

I only have a 8' Beam on my sailboat. When I'm running the Jib and Storm Jib, I run the lines inside the lines and shrouds. The Working Jib is elevated via steel line with quick releases on each end to prevent a deck/hull turbulence and to clear the lifelines and pulpit on wing-and-wing runs, while the Storm Jib has it's own little extensions. There is no contact with the shrouds or spreaders with these two sails.

The Genoa (120%, 150%, 170%) sheets are all routed outside the lifelines, again on the steel extension line to the pulpit's deck. They are far too massive to go under the shrouds and spreaders.

The blocks the sheets are led through are VASTLY different in ranges along the toe rails. Each sail almost requires it's own block to be fast at changing a sail, or marks along the toe rails to connect the blocks to. The Two Jibs can be routed to the same ones, and the genoas each need their own actually, now that I think of it, with the 170 requiring a double set of blocks on the toe rail since it goes so far back, it needs another block to take it back to the cockpit once it gets back to the aft of the sailboat...

From the Blocks, I route the sheet to a winch on the combing and then to a cleat to hold it. The two jib sheets could be hand-pulled and then cleated without a winch.

As far as where to place the first block to route the sheet, I believe this works best (correct me if I'm wrong here, as I'm a noob too!). When looking at the sail, there is an angle formed by the luff and foot. if you bisect that angle, you end up with what angle and where to place the sheet and block properly on the deck. Like I said, the larger sails I have, route much further back.

I have also noticed that if the angle is incorrect for the sheet-to-block (i.e. the block is too close to the sail, or too far behind) then the sail will luff and flap in any wind, at any tension. When it is just right of an angle, it neatly fills the headsails and there is no flapping.

I hope all of this makes sense, and I hope it helps others as they learn.

Last edited by Lancer28; 07-25-2007 at 10:44 AM. Reason: had a typo - oops
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