Riding turns around winch base

CLucas · #1 (**permalink**) 10-14-2007

On my Pearson 30, when tacking to starboard (going onto a port tack), my headsail sheet more often than not ends up around the winch base (no the drum) and snarled with a riding turn. I'm usually flying a 150 and the fairlead is located correctly (so that an imaginary line from the fairlead is perpendicular to the luff, blah, blah, blah...). I've tried changing the angle/speed at which me or my crew sheets in to no avail. The winches themselves are Lewmar 40s (standard 2-speed, not ST) which I may have resurfaced this winter. The winches themselves are factory positioned and have never been relocated or moved. What's especially odd is that this only seems to happen on a port tack (??!?) -- never on stbd. Fairlead position is identical on both sides

I'm guessing this is user error, but would appreciate any insight anyone may have as it drives me nuts!

nolatom · #2 (**permalink**) 10-14-2007

Can't tell you without seeing the setup, but generally, if you're getting an override, your turning block is too "high up", or you're taking too many turns on the winch while trimming a relatively slack sheet. If you have good tension from block to sheet, and don't try to trim with more than 2 turns round the winch until you do have good tension, and the lead block or the turning block is positioned "below" the winch base, then you shouldn't get an override.

Are you trying to go to 3 or 4 wraps too early? I don't know, you're there, I'm not. But it seems strange if it happens only on port tack, not starboard. Maybe the winch orientation/angle is different between sides?

I'm kinda guessing. Won't say it's user error without more info.

SEMIJim · #3 (**permalink**) 10-14-2007

Sounds like user error. (Assuming it's not an issue with your turning blocks, as nolatom mentioned.) It's very easy to get a riding turn if there are too many turns on the winch for the load or if the bitter end is held too low--especially, in that latter case, when you're easing.

We also have a Pearson 30. The PO upgraded the winches to Harken #40's and put the original Lewmars up on the cabin top, for the halyards and the like. Our jib sheets run through the fairlead blocks, back through turning blocks at the back, then forward to the winches.

Jim

sailingfool · #4 (**permalink**) 10-14-2007

If the sheet doesn't lead onto the winch at a proper angle, you will tend to loops around the base or to get overrides. That is why most boats have turning blocks at the aft end of the cockpit - these blocks ensure that the sheets feed onto the winches at a constant angle irregardless of where the sheet block is located. Do you have and use turning blocks?

FWIW this link defines the correct angle in question
http://en.lewmar.com/products/index....r=40ST%20Winch

CLucas · #5 (**permalink**) 10-14-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolatom

Can't tell you without seeing the setup, but generally, if you're getting an override, your turning block is too "high up", or you're taking too many turns on the winch while trimming a relatively slack sheet. If you have good tension from block to sheet, and don't try to trim with more than 2 turns round the winch until you do have good tension, and the lead block or the turning block is positioned "below" the winch base, then you shouldn't get an override.

Are you trying to go to 3 or 4 wraps too early? I don't know, you're there, I'm not. But it seems strange if it happens only on port tack, not starboard. Maybe the winch orientation/angle is different between sides?

I'm kinda guessing. Won't say it's user error without more info.

Thanks. You could be onto something since I'm often using 3 wraps from the start. As to *only* happening on port tack... I've checked the orientation and angle of the winch and it seems identical on each side. Perhaps my imagination. As others have suggested, I'll start using the turning blocks, which, for whatever reason I haven't been using (my previous boat, a CD Typhoon many years ago when I was growing up) didn't have them.

CLucas · #6 (**permalink**) 10-14-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by SEMIJim

Sounds like user error. (Assuming it's not an issue with your turning blocks, as nolatom mentioned.) It's very easy to get a riding turn if there are too many turns on the winch for the load or if the bitter end is held too low--especially, in that latter case, when you're easing.

We also have a Pearson 30. The PO upgraded the winches to Harken #40's and put the original Lewmars up on the cabin top, for the halyards and the like. Our jib sheets run through the fairlead blocks, back through turning blocks at the back, then forward to the winches.

Jim

Thanks, Jim. Let's right it off to user error -- first off, I'm proabably guilty of taking too many wraps to start; and second, I haven't used the turning blocks for whatever reason other than my previous boat didn't have them and old habits die hard. I knew it had to do with the angle to (or from) the winch but focused on the angle from the fairlead to the winch -- ignoring what is obvious to some (duh) - the turning blocks.

Thanks.

nolatom · #7 (**permalink**) 10-14-2007

Here's a thought, since you got me interested..

If it only happens on port tack, could it be that you take an "extra" turn on the winch, because the sheet, which winds clockwise regardless of which tack, starts on the opposite side of the winch, depending on which tack you're trimming on. It would make a half-a-wrap difference, and you might be taking a half or even a whole extra wrap on the stbd winch. And more turns means more chance of an override?

So maybe that's it? A little like the "puzzler" on "Car Talk", if you listen to Tom and Ray on Saturday mornings.

No, wait, I thought about it more, that wouldn't make the difference, would it? Crud, thought I had it...

P.S. Your previous boat was a Typhoon? Wow, does that bring back some good New England memories. My dad had Typhoon #2, built by Naugus Fiberglass in Salem, Mass, before the design was bought out by Cape Dory. A solid Carl Alberg design and a sweet little boat. You've gone from good boat to good boat....

tenuki · #8 (**permalink**) 10-15-2007

the line is coming into the winch to high, I bet you switching to the turning blocks will blow your mind.

A lot of people think the turning blocks are the spinnaker blocks, it's very common to see them not being used.

CLucas · #9 (**permalink**) 10-15-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenuki

the line is coming into the winch to high, I bet you switching to the turning blocks will blow your mind.

A lot of people think the turning blocks are the spinnaker blocks, it's very common to see them not being used.

That's *exactly* what my thinking has been -- that they were spinnaker blocks. Ironically, I had thought about using them to solve the issue, but viewed it as a kludge/workaround that wouldn't address the real problem... Apparently it's me that's the problem.

Live and learn, as they say.

CLucas · #10 (**permalink**) 10-15-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolatom

Here's a thought, since you got me interested..

If it only happens on port tack, could it be that you take an "extra" turn on the winch, because the sheet, which winds clockwise regardless of which tack, starts on the opposite side of the winch, depending on which tack you're trimming on. It would make a half-a-wrap difference, and you might be taking a half or even a whole extra wrap on the stbd winch. And more turns means more chance of an override?

So maybe that's it? A little like the "puzzler" on "Car Talk", if you listen to Tom and Ray on Saturday mornings.

No, wait, I thought about it more, that wouldn't make the difference, would it? Crud, thought I had it...

Interesting theory, and I think you're onto something. I see (after making several bizarre-looking little sketches... Giu?) why you think it might not make a difference, but here's the kicker... even though you end up with the same # of wraps on the drum, the # of wraps present where the sheet is hauled in may vary depending on the angle (fore/aft) the crew is at relative to the winch. Depending on the angle, two full wraps could be 2x the diameter of the sheet or possible 3X. (or perhaps I've just had too much coffee...)

Quote:

P.S. Your previous boat was a Typhoon? Wow, does that bring back some good New England memories. My dad had Typhoon #2, built by Naugus Fiberglass in Salem, Mass, before the design was bought out by Cape Dory. A solid Carl Alberg design and a sweet little boat. You've gone from good boat to good boat....

Growing up, my family had a Typhoon built by Edey & Duff -- our first, ahem... big boat post the family Sunfish. Loads of good memories, including overnights with 4 (!!) people on board. That was 20-something years ago. Got away from sailing until this past year -- took my daughter to her sailing camp last summer (2006) and realized just how much I missed being on the water. Thus began the boat search. You probably know the rest of the story