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  #11  
Old 06-06-2002
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Heavy weather sailing

Jeff,

This is a little off the subject of heavy weather, but I have a question about boom vangs. My boat, a ''72 C&C 30 mk1 purchased last fall, does not have a boom vang. I have just started to consider one but I''m confused as to its use. For some reason I thought that using a vang to flatten the sail would power it up. In lighter winds and rolling seas (or stinkpot wakes) my boom "bounces" and this seems to reduce speed. More so with the wind behind me. Am I incorrect? I use my traveler and mainsheet to try to correct this (let the traveler out and bring the sheet in to reduce the angle of the mainsheet and put more tension on the boom).

When sailing on a beat I bring the traveler to the windward side of the boat. Is this correct?

I''m still learning and experimenting.

Thanks
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Old 06-07-2002
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Heavy weather sailing

Hi Rob,

I apologize in advance if I am being to basic in this description for your knowledge level. The idea of ''powering up'' or ''powering down'' is a little bit counter-intuitive at first. Even many esperienced sailors do not have a clear picture of this concept. To explain; The amount of force that a sail generates is related to the shape of the sail and its angle of attack to the wind. Angle or attack, or incident angle, is the angle of the sail to the wind. A sail that is fuller (rounder) in shape generates more lift (the term lift is used because a sail is seen as a wing on edge and because, except down wind, the drive that a sail produces pulls the boat from the low pressure side of the sail rather than pushing the sail as one might otherwise assume). The flatter the sail the less lift is generated.

A sail generates lift perpendicular to the surface of the sail with the most lift generated at the luff of the sail and next to no lift generated at the trailing edge. As a result the accumulated forces of a sail can be thought of as having three active components; Drive- which is the component of the force that acts in the forward direction of the boat, Drag which is a component that acts to reduce drive, and Heeling Forces which operate across the boat.

In an ideal sense the goal in sailing is to maximize drive while keeping the other two components under control. For any given boat, in any given conditions, there is an ideal amount of curvature (camber) in the sail and an ideal angle of attack. In light air the goal is to produce the maximum lift that you can regardless of heel angle, etc. But in heavier conditions it is possible to produce too much lift. First of all, except for planning boats, most displacement boats can only use so much drive, i.e. enough drive to push the boat at hullspeed. Second of all with the increased lift comes increased heeling and aerodynamic drag, which may actually slow a boat down and make it less safe and comfortable to sail.

So, the one critical goal in heavier air is to flatten the shape of the sail in order to reduce lift. The other goal in heavier conditions is try to make sure that the sail has the proper incident angle. When you have the sail pulled in too far the sail produces too much heeling for the amount of drive making control and comfort less than ideal.

Which brings us to twist. If you sight up a sail you will notice that if you drew a straight horizontal line from the mast to the leech of the sail these lines would not all be parallel. Some would be seen to have at a larger angle to the centerline of the boat than others. This is called twist. When you have a lot of twist in heavy air, part of the sail is over trimmed and part of the sail is often under trimmed and the result is that the part of the sail that is over trimmed is causing the boat to heel excessively.


So talking about the how this applies to actual sail trim underway. In light air you generally can tolerate more power and more twist for a variety of reasons. To power up a sail, the halyard, outhaul, backstay adjuster, and boom vang are eased. The traveler is brought high above the centerline of the boat so that the mainsheet is pulling more horizontally rather than downward. Pulling downward tends to reduce twist and flatten the sail.

As the winds increase, the force on the sail stretches the fabric and in the absence of a boom vang pulls the boom upward, both add curvature to the sail and so provide more lift, increasing drive, drag and heeling. At some point you have too much lift and so you need to flatten the sail out. On a beat you lower the traveler to leeward and tighten the mainsheet. This reduces twist, and fullness in the sail. You also tension the halyards, outhaul, backstay adjuster, and boom vang to further reduce fullness. By the times that the boat is getting overpowered you want to have a very flat sail pointed at a very flat angle to the wind. The traveler should be all the way to leeward and the mainsheet tensioned. The jib car should be slightly aft of its normal position.

When reaching, without a vang the sail wants to get a lot of twist and to power up in the gusts. This is backward of what you really want to happen. A boom vang, by keeping the boom from rising, reduces twist and so keeps the various portions of the sail at similar angles of attach to each other. This allows you to adjust the sail so that you have just the right angle of attach up and down the sail rather than have one part over trimmed and one part too eased. As a result you have less weather helm and also heel less.

For beginners it seems as if heel equals speed. Generally, heeling does not equate to greater speed. When a boat heels it generally produces greater drag, leeway and is less comfortable to move about on. Beginners usually look at an over-trimmed sail as producing more drive because it produces more heel. In a general sense an over trimmed sail does not produce more drive (or even more lift), just a greater heeling moment due to the greater sideforce of the wind impacting the sail at a deeper angle.

It is only when all of that fails to achieve a comfortable heel and rudder angle that reducing sail area becomes necessary. To keep the terms clear, depowering is reducing the power of the sail area that you have up, and reefing is reducing the area of the sail that you have up. The terms are not interchangeable.

I hope this answers your question.

Respectfully,
Jeff
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  #13  
Old 06-07-2002
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Heavy weather sailing

Jeff I agree with everything you''ve said. There is a question in todays Sailnet on Sailtrim for excessive winds in which the expert (Don Dickson) advocates doing what you are saying but also inducing twist as a temporary measure.

"Ask yourself beforehand, is the halyard tight enough? Is the outhaul taut and the cunningham tight? How about the vang? If the vang is tight on this point of sail, you can relieve a lot of the pressure on the upper leech of the mainsail by easing the vang tension just before the force of the puffs hit. Of course start by easing the sheets and then use the vang. It''s sort of a secondary control for these instances, but very effective if the wind is strong enough to overpower the amount of sail you have up."


Not that I agree or disagree as you mentioned previuosly with the "Fisherman''s Reef"...Just wanted to bring up the point. I really think it depends on your boat. Everyone boat handles a little bit different.
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Old 06-07-2002
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Heavy weather sailing

I really think that that quote is referring to a very subtle adjustment that makes sense for race boats in a very narrow band of conditions. For cruisers which cannot burn off speed by planning or surfing when they are over powered and where sail stretch happens automatically, there would be few instances where where easing the vang makes sense.

On most boats with dacron sails, there is sufficient stretch in the sail that the sail automatically increases in draft and twist. But on boats with lower stretch high tech fabrics you can more effectively use twist to depower the boat a little without powering the sail up. As he says, it is a secindary adjustment. I don''t think it is very effective compared to leaving the vang quite tight and allowing the traveller and the sheet be eases to change incident angle.

This is an easy thing to experiment with and try out for yourself. If you go out on a breezy day with another person, take turns steering. Set the jib for the conditions and then steer by the jib teletales. Have the other person try bringing the traveller to windward a bit and easing the mainsail to the point where it is about to luff and feel the helm. Then ease the traveller and bring the mainsheet in tighter and feel that. Go through a number of cycles and feel the difference. Similarly put the boat on a beam reach and try easing and tightening the vbang while adjusting the mainsheet so that the sail is not luffing. At least on a tiller steered boat or a boat with minimal friction in the steering system the loads should be obvious. Even with a boat that has wheel steering you should be able to see the amount that the wheel is turned.

Respectfully
Jeff
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Old 06-07-2002
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Heavy weather sailing

In the begining I did think that more heel = more speed. Till I learned a couple of hard lessons this spring getting hammered as wind speed increased and I was not prepared. Now I reef earlier Am I correct to think that a boom vang will allow me a little more windspeed before having to reef?

Another question; When I am on a beat, sailing as close to the wind as I can, I bring the traveler all the way in to the windward side and tighten the mainsheet as much as I can. It seems that I lose speed but can sail closer to the wind. Also the jib luffs a little at this point no matter how much I try to bring it in. Am I gaining anything? Would it be better just to tack?

Thanks,
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Old 06-08-2002
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Heavy weather sailing

Hi Rob,

Depending on the point of sail, you are correct that a boom vang will allow you to reef at a slightly higher wind speed, but even before you have to reef, it can help reduce weather helm and heeling. This is especially true when power reeching in a range of wind angle between cracked off a beat to just below a beam reach. In that range of wind angles the boat has a tendancy to heel a lot and get unbalanced. The boom should be eased to the point that the mainsheet is no longer pulling downward at a nearly vertical angle. Without a vang you would need to have the boom in far enough that you aren''t luffing but in doing so you would have a lot of twist and the lower part of the sail would be overtrimmed. Using a vang you can remove this twist and so the sail would have a proper angle of attach up and down the sail. Without the overtrimmed lower portion of the sail the boat will be more comfortable, faster, and have less helm which at some point in the wind speed range means reefing later.

On your second question you are asking about one aspect of shifting gears. You can sail a boat so that it wants to point higher but sails slower (pinching) or you can sail lower and go faster (footing off). There are reasons to use both in specific applications but as a general rule, the fastest way up wind is neither footing nor pinching, but at a point in between. On your boat the Jib is the prime mover upwind and so if your jib is luffing even a little you are clearly pinching. You are better off easing the boom to the centerline of the boat and allowing both sails to really do their thing. In the mainsail you should have ''yarns'' at each batten tip (actually slightly above or below the batten works best) and these teletales should all be flying aft when the mainsail is trimmed correctly. In moderate to light conditions its not too bad to have the upper most batten yarn occasionally stalled and sucked into the leeward leech of the sail.

Your genoa trim is limited by the shroud attachment points and so is the limiting factor in how high you can efficiently point upwind. So to answer your question, If you are only overtrimming the mainsail for a couple boat lengths to perhaps get around an obstruction pinching probably makes sense, but if you are sailing some longer distance, trimming for a balance speed and pointing, makes better sense even if it means taking an extra tack or two.
Good luck out there.
Regards
Jeff
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  #17  
Old 08-24-2009
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I've been away for a while. Sailing, traveling, working, etc. Re-reading some of my old posts from my first couple of years sailing and got to this one... BUMP...

What great advice on basic sail trim from JeffH. Looking back, I had no idea how much it was worth when I was reading it
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  #18  
Old 08-24-2009
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Welcome back Rob - and thanks for bumping this one. I've copied it over to the "Salt's Corner Table" thread where I'm trying to compile some of the best advice given by our Sailnet salts.

If you run across any more gems like this on, quote them into that thread so we can get this great stuff in one place.
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Old 08-24-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
As the winds increase... ...The jib car should be slightly aft of its normal position.
Moving the car aft tensions the foot and twists off the top of the jib. So in this case, you want twist in order to depower the jib.
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Old 09-08-2013
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Re: Heavy weather sailing

just a mention that when i was taking a sailing course and on the tiller. i started to feel that the boat was being overpowerd---i got a little panicky at the time and kept trying to pinch to stop the heeling that worked but my instructer told me I was pinching again--it did level off the boat but was not what I should have have been doing. After some real thought later i came to the conclusion that when I could have asked the other crewmember to let out the traveller and we would have levelled off a bit. Would this be correct??
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