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I got schooled on Monday

3K views 16 replies 12 participants last post by  farmboy 
#1 ·
So Monday was a windy day on the Bay of Quinte. 20 knots, gusting to 25 maybe (no significant wave action). We went sailing with our sailing guru, the guy who guides us through our boating experience. Guru was at the helm, and we flew a 180 and full Main. Wow. He put on a clinic. I'm still trying to digest what I saw. So if you're relatively new to this sailing thing and you can find a great sailor to go out with, do it.

The second part of my schooling came from my wonderful girlfriend. This is only the second time I have crewed on our boat because I'm usually at the helm. The first time I crewed, nobody knew what they were doing, so I fit right in. This time, she had a thing or two to teach me (where to be when so that each tack is perfect, where things are stowed so that the boat is a safe and orderly vessel, etc., etc.). It was an eyeopening experience. I think that every skipper should try it. I have always appreciated her contribution to our sailing, but this experience really hammered home the unique perspective that she is bringing to our boat.
 
#3 ·
Not all great sailors are good teachers... so you really have to be careful about that. I know one sailor, who is currently sailing a miniTransat for a living, that used to teach...he was a pretty pathetic teacher as sailors go... didn't seem to care that he terrified his students... Didn't explain anything worth jack. When I saw what he was doing, I mentioned it to the management of the school, and they took a second look and yanked him as an instructor.

In 20 knots of wind, in a J24, he hadn't rigged the boat to depower it and it was sailing at 30˚ or more of heel. My friend was a student in the boat at the time, and she CAN'T SWIM. She was terrified the whole time she was out. I happened to be sailing that day, out of the school's associated sailing club and wasn't too happy about it, since I had recommended the school to her.
 
#5 ·
I'd rather have a 'guru' teach me to sail in the normal 5-10 kts one can expect than learn to sail on my ear.
I took my sailing classes in 35kts of wind, double reefed main and #2 jib, learned diddly squat about how to sail a boat as all we were doing was trying to keep our footing. Skipped most of the lessons because conditions were too rough.
Damned school has a policy of no refunds if you withdraw and never cancelling a class based on weather (Annapolis School of Sailing).

As to learning to crew, I single hand often enough to keep ahead of the curve on where stuff is on my boat, and fully appreciate what the Admiral brings to the experience.
 
#8 ·
As far a learning goes practicing selecting the correct amount of sail, reefing (remember it is easier to shake out a reef than put one in.) My rule of thumb is to be conservative. If the boat heals past a 25 deg incline you won't be going faster, and it won't be more comfortable.
It is great to practice COB, throw a pfd over and try a rescue!
 
#9 ·
Report Card Grade: D+

I wouldn't call this guy a "great" sailor. As others have said, 20 kts of wind with a 180 and a full main is a huge amount of square footage of sail to fly, doesn't matter what boat you are in. Unless you were running down wind, I can't see how you would be "sailing" without full burying the leeward rail and deck on well trimmed sails. If he had the sails trimmed to reduce heal and weather helm, they would be flapping excessively, thus putting wear and tear on the sail cloth. A better lesson would have been to go out with the 180/Full Main Combo, show you would overpowered was in terms of boat heal and weather helm, then showed you what to do to depower the boat. Change headsail size, reef main, sail on main or jib only, etc. Or even better still, recognize the wind strength right from the start and set the boat up for the conditions before leaving the dock.

When I took sailing classes, they spent most of the time doing MOB drills. Why? Because it teaches you have to handle the boat. We'd toss the PFD (MOB) at all points of sail and sail the appropriate course to get back to the PFD. When we were not doing MOB drills, we zig-zagged around tight mooring fields, again for boat handling skills, and then in more open water to learn and understand heel, weather helm, and sail adjustments without the need to turn constantly.

So yes, you were "Schooled" alright; too bad poorly, IMHO. Overall grade for the "Guru" D+. The "+" because apparently he got you back to the dock in one piece.

DrB
 
#10 · (Edited)
Apparently Mr. Guru...

Apparently Mr. Guru didn't teach you one of the principle rules in sailing "flatter is faster"..

Time would have been much better spent on "how to reef", "how to power and de-power for gusts" and how to trim the sails to minimize weather helm which like, sailing on your ear, dramatically slows you down..

Perhaps you might consider a new "Guru".
 
#11 ·
lbdavis wrote:
"Wow dude, that's a lot of sail in those winds and a 24' boat. I bet that was exciting! How exciting to have your best gal right into it."

Glad you see it my way, lbdavis. She rocks.

SD wrote:
"Not all great sailors are good teachers"

Point well taken, SD. I've got a fair amount of formal education, and I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to teaching. What I will say is that his style works for me. He knew that we don't scare easily. We do try to make everyone comfortable on our boat. I've gone out on only the main in 10 knots because I felt that's how our guests would best enjoy themselves.

SemiJim wrote:
"A 180 and a full main in 20 kts, gusting to 25? You must've either had a lot of meat on the or you were sailing on your ear the entire time you were anything above a broad reach."

Crew totals 545lbs (I'm a big guy). I don't know if that's a lot or not. We headed up and down the bay by broad reaching and close reaching. The rail was in the water from time to time.

As far as everyone who thinks we had too much sail up, thanks for your suggestions, but I stand by my original post that we had a great day. I was talking to a Shark racer before we went out and he told me that if you want to go fast in a Shark, you hold on to full sail to 25 knots. I didn't know this when I originally posted, but I think Sharks have very small mains. From what I can tell, we were using 190 square feet of sail. Other boats of comparable size seem to have 200 to 225 for full sail area. Here are the specs on the boat: Shark - Used Sailboat Market in Canada
 
#12 ·
From..

From the Shark24.org web site on sail trim.

The range of the 150% is 13 knots and up. The sail have proved to be quite effective, especially in 15 to 25 knots of breeze. In the past, people would carry their 180% up to 22 knots and then switch to a jib. The 150% makes the boat easier to handle, and extends the life of the 180%. You can sail the boat flatter
 
#13 ·
I sail a Shark and it depends on your point of sail. IMHO If you are going to the wind close hauled less sail would be better in 25 knots. Reaching is a different story as a Shark is a semi-planing hull.
 
#14 ·
Thanks for the info, hal. I had not found that section yet. John Clark is a top-notch sailor and sail maker. It's just that from the way I read it, given that I don't have a 150, we had the right amount of sail up for 20 knots, given that we were trying to go fast:

"In the past, people would carry their 180% up to 22 knots"

A note on the wind speed for the day: I arrived at my numbers by checking the hourly data from local weather stations. At the time we were out, 35km/h (about 19.5 knots) was the recorded speed in the area. Maybe the wind was 19-23. I have no instruments on my boat. I am quite sure that 20-25 was a good approximation of the day. But if 22 is when to drop the 180, maybe that's all we got. It's kind of beside the point given that the boat was sailing well and everybody on board was comfortable with how things were going.

GreatWhite:

It may be an important point that we were not close hauled, we were close reaching. The skipper had the main trimmed fairly tight with the traveler eased well to leeward. He then had us set the genny for that point of sail. The boat seemed to like this setup. I'm sure if we were close hauled we would have been too far over most of the time. By the way, I have no heel-o-meter, and I would like to calculate my angle of heel when the rail is at the water, but I need to know the exact freeboard of the boat. I am estimating 28 inches. Is this correct? I am 4 hours away from my boat right now, so I can't measure.

One more point on the safety of the day. All of the safety suggestions in this thread are good ones. These maneuvers have been practiced on our boat before and will be practiced again. Our plan for reducing sail on the boat is to simply drop the genny. As we were nearing the end of the sail, the skipper felt the we might become overblown, and we should get the genny down. This had been practiced before and was easily accomplished in about 30 seconds. I simply went through the cabin and stuck my upper body through the forward hatch. I called for the skipper to point up a bit, while my better half released the sheet. As soon as I had the clew in my hand, she released the halyard. I gathered the genoa down through the hatch. The rest of the sail was relaxed under the main only.
 
#15 ·
As a owner operator of a small sailing school/bed & breakfast (only my wife
and me) I have made it a pratice to "teach" how to sail. This might include, for a short period of time, being out in 20 to 25 knots of wind. After all it a part of sailing. However, never do we attempt to teach in winds that terrify the students. Nor do we try to teach when the winds drop below 5 knots. We cancel class when conditions do not lend themselves to learning. Again we are small (one J24) and only take two students at a time, 4 if they all know each other. My point? We stayed small after some bad experiences with having instructors. We don't have the "big" school attitude but then again we don't have a big 401k either. For us it's a way of life, a lifestyle, and a passion for sailing and the desire to pass it all along
 
#16 ·
Reefing on a Shark is changing the headsail from a 180 down to a 150.The mains are never reefed while racing.I have never seen a 100% jib on a Shark.Our club has 10 Sharks racing and the only time my Mirage 25 is faster is under 15 knots of wind.
They are a fun boat to sail in heavy wind because they really get up and go!
Phil
 
#17 ·
They do go like stink when the wind blows, don't they Phil. When you say you've never seen a 100% jib, do you mean never seen one raised? I've seen them listed in the sail inventory of Sharks for sale. I think cruisers have them for when the proverbial hits the fan. I plan to add one to my inventory eventually.
 
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