Knock Down Drills? - Page 2 - SailNet Community
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 22 Old 09-22-2009
Senior Member
 
Sabreman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Yeocomico River, VA
Posts: 1,643
Thanks: 3
Thanked 18 Times in 15 Posts
Rep Power: 10
   
If I'm offshore and the combination of wind and sea conditions lend themselves to a knockdown (i.e., gusting, 40kts, 10'+ seas), the techniques described by Sailormon6 and tommays are correct.

In summertime situations where thunderstorms are prevalent, we use a watchful eye and are ready to reef or douse at a moment's notice or sooner. Thus, our knockdown plan is to be thoroughly versed in seamanship techniques like reefing and reading the weather. Thunderstorms don't develop instantaneously; there is always enough time to have preventative measures in place, if diligent enough.

Last year we were racing the Maryland Governor's cup and were hit with a succession of thunderstorms. There was a minor debate regarding whether to reef; the go-fast light air racers in the crew wanted full main. I overrode them and put in a single reef....... they thanked me afterward and commented that the boat actually sailed better with the reef. Imagine that!

I don't mean to preach, only to pass along what we do. I really don't think that extra gear aloft (that can fail) is the answer. Diligence is. IMHO, the only place for flotation at the masthead is on a small school boat

Sabre 38 "Victoria"
Sabreman is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 22 Old 09-22-2009
Senior Member
 
GeorgeB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Alameda, San Francisco Bay
Posts: 1,762
Thanks: 1
Thanked 48 Times in 47 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Way back when the earth was young, I suffered a knockdown in my C22 in the vicinity of the slot here on Bay. Pretty intense experience. I echo the advice from previous posters. Lock down the lazarette hatches with hasp hooks. Ours never flew open, but if they did… Also when things look rough put in the hatch boards and close the slider. When we went in the water came very close to down-flooding into the cabin from the open slider and not the companionway due to it’s trapizodial shape. I like the idea of putting in some transom drain holes. We were shin deep in water for a long time once we were righted

The boat will (slowly) come up if there isn’t much water collected on top of the sails. You must blow the sheets so water can spill from them and allow the boat to right itself. We had the swing keel lock bolt in place which kept the keel from retracting into the trunk. The natural instinct was for all of us to go to the high side (takes a little courage to go down and release the loaded jib sheet) so our combined weight helped bring the boat up. Needless to say, we were a mess once we came up. Sails flogging, water in the cockpit, lunch, cushions and various articles of clothing floating away, outboard “downed”, and a girlfriend rapidly rethinking her options.

Obviously, the best advice is to never get into the predicament in the first place. You really want to replace your 110 jib as the 130 will easily over power the boat. If you have to fly one sail, use the jib as it will twist off easier and spill the wind. The reef in the main does a great job in de-powering it but you will need a small jib to keep the boat pointing and moving. When the wind increases, you want to drop your traveler. My 1972 vintage boat didn’t have much of a traveler so I used the vang a lot going to windward. If you do too, ease the vang, in windy conditions as you want to have twist in the main. You also want to move the jib fairleads back as far as you can (again, my old boat didn’t have much in the way of fairlead track so I would ease the sheet). And most importantly, sail it like a big dinghy! Don’t be afraid to sit on the windward cockpit coaming to do a little weight trim. Good luck and have lots of fun!
GeorgeB is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #13 of 22 Old 09-22-2009 Thread Starter
Member
 
MazeRat7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 69
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
First I would like to thank everyone for their comments. While I hope to never find myself in such a situation I must agree 100% that diligence at practicing good seamanship is the best preventative.

Here are a few take aways for me personally: (This list may continue to expand I'm sure)

1) Make sure the lazerettes are latched closed before leaving the slip. I generally do this, but have been known to be lazy and forget. Be sure all other hatches are closed and dogged down when underway.

2) I need to build some new crib boards. When I took title to the boat almost 2 months ago it came with a one-piece, homemade companioinway cover. Its heavy and almost impossible to stow. That opening is always wide open. Looks like down flooding is my biggest risk here. This will be a good winter project for in the shop and a top priority. (I do keep the sliding hatch closed however, FWIW).

3) Buy a new working jib (the one that came with the boat is shot) and use the new 135 only in light to moderate air.

4) When we see the thunderheads building, get that first reef in before its needed. I have been known to do this before leaving the slip since mine is a simple system that requires me to go to the mast. Perhaps I should look into a single line kit to make it easy to do while underway so I don't have to go on deck.

5) Keep working on sail trim techniques (ie traveler & genoa car position, vang tension, etc).

6) The keel bolt is always tight before I leave and something I check regularly - keep doing this.

7) I've looked at the thru-transom scupper kit from CD and am now convinced they are a must add this winter as well. Those factory scuppers are slow and easily clogged.

This is not something I have thought about in much detail but has been on my mind a lot lately. For me personally, having a plan of prevention is far more valuable than a plan of "correction" after-the-fact.

Thanks again everyone for your suggestions,
MZr7

1985 Catalina 36 Tall #404
s/v Peace of Mind
Austin, Tx.
MazeRat7 is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #14 of 22 Old 09-22-2009
Barquito
 
Barquito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,245
Thanks: 0
Thanked 26 Times in 26 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Note - Usually, the advice for heavy weather is to tighten the vang. This flattens the sail (depowers). You might be able to increase twist a little by tensioning the backstay more (will depend on having sufficient foreward shroud tension). Mostly everything should be tight and flat: Halyards, cunningham, vang, outhaul.

I keep the mainsheet in my hand, uncleated, when things are getting interesting. The C22 really seems more like a dinghy than a keelboat in winds greater than 25 kt!
Barquito is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #15 of 22 Old 09-22-2009
Senior Member
 
casioqv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Riverside, CA
Posts: 410
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
What would be the best strategy to prevent a knockdown in a C22?

In really high winds would it be best to fly only a single reefed mainsail, or a 110 jib on a Catalina 22?

Would a jib alone cause lee helm, preventing the boat from naturally turning upwind in a blow?

Which direction would be safest in a strong wind with a C22? I know people on here generally recommend running downwind with a drogue, but it seems like the low flat stern of the C22 would pound hard in the oncoming waves, and fill the cockpit quickly.
casioqv is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #16 of 22 Old 09-22-2009
Senior Member
 
Sabreman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Yeocomico River, VA
Posts: 1,643
Thanks: 3
Thanked 18 Times in 15 Posts
Rep Power: 10
   
My father owned a C22 and I worked for a dealer when I was much younger so I know the boat. We sailed out of Ocean City, NJ so the weather could be "robust". A few suggestions:

1. For this boat "high winds" to me goes up to about 20kts. The boat isn't designed to be an offshore vessel. To prevent a knockdown above that range, stay at the dock.
2. If encountering gusty conditions while out, a) reef, b) shorten the jib, c) reef again, d) shorten the jib again. In that order. A roller furler is a great safety item.
3. Quickly ease/release the main when the "big one hits". The boat should flatten right up. Someone said to sail it like a dinghy. True!
4. I like to douse the main and sail with the jib. Yes, there will be a little lee helm, but not overpowering. We sail with jib alone quite often.
5. A drogue is good offshore with enough sea room, but I doubt that will fit the vast majority of C22 circumstances. Keep the head to the wind/waves; don't get fancy.

For the most part our weather is quite predictable; in 40 years of sailing I can't recall a single time that the weather gave me NO notice. With today's technology, we know if bad weather is in the area if we take the time to check. On a boat like the C22, there is nearly always enough time to take precautions. To paraphrase, the time to take action is when you first think of it. And that action is pretty simple - check the weather, sail cautiously, shorten sail early, dump the main, stay pierside if beyond the crew's ability.

In the interest of disclosure, I once went overboard on my dad's successor to the C22 which was a C27. We tried to outrun a thunderstorm and were knocked flat. Lessons learned: a) you can't outrun a storm except by pure luck b) we were negligent, we saw the storm, the knockdown was our fault c) if we'd dropped the main and stayed with the jib (or vice versa) we would have been fine.

Don't mean to preach, just my $0.02.

Sabre 38 "Victoria"
Sabreman is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #17 of 22 Old 09-22-2009
Senior Member
 
tommays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,296
Thanks: 1
Thanked 30 Times in 30 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
Number one most of us have to sail some place when we misjudge the weather and need to stay away from land which makes things like downwind with a drogue and and unlikely option due to lack of space

You most likely skill is leaning how to heave to which still requires space and will not be and option if your close to land (i am almost always close to land )

Heaving to - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And unless your doing spinnaker stuff a knockdown is really pretty hard to do under main and jib without getting caught up in some crazy storm related wind burst ,Rounding up from weather helm would be the most likely outcome and this will just tell you REEF NOW



I can always find out whats going on before i even get in the car

Rounding up - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A J24 like i sail is a tender boat and as the wind speed picks up we can drop the jib and reef the main and sail UPWIND in 25+ knots without a lot of issues and get home fine.

If something really crazy happens then we drop the main completely and hope that outboard starts easy and it passes real fast

1970 Cal 29 Sea Fever

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

1981 J24 Tangent 2930
Tommays
Northport NY


If a dirty bottom slows you down what do you think it does to your boat
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by tommays; 09-22-2009 at 05:58 PM.
tommays is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #18 of 22 Old 09-22-2009
Senior Member
 
casioqv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Riverside, CA
Posts: 410
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
The "dinghy" thing makes a lot of sense.

My '74 C22 seemed to sail a lot like a dinghy in 25 knot gusts with the full main and 110 jib, as long as we had all 3 crew on the windward rail, and kept the main uncleated to let it out quickly in gusts. We were going about 7.5 knots (hull speed 5.9) on a beam reach, and the leeward rail only went underwater when we didn't sheet out the main fast enough in sudden gusts. We should have reefed the mainsail, but I still need to learn how...
casioqv is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #19 of 22 Old 09-22-2009
Senior Member
 
davidpm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Madison
Posts: 3,900
Thanks: 219
Thanked 58 Times in 50 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabreman View Post
In the interest of disclosure, I once went overboard on my dad's successor to the C22 which was a C27.
Did you survive?

Seriously it sounds like an event, what happened?
davidpm is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #20 of 22 Old 09-22-2009 Thread Starter
Member
 
MazeRat7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Austin, Tx
Posts: 69
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
Did you survive?

Seriously it sounds like an event, what happened?
I getting the sense my neighbor Smack may want this story in his BFS thread....



MZr7

1985 Catalina 36 Tall #404
s/v Peace of Mind
Austin, Tx.
MazeRat7 is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
knock downs thalassolikos Learning to Sail 14 11-28-2004 09:55 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome