My seat-of-the-pants lesson for today... - Page 3 - SailNet Community
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post #21 of 82 Old 01-19-2010
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Caleb - " low Is." is called " High Isl. " now and is a great spot to hit ground last year they put out markers.

Bubble - Welcome to sailnet we go of topic and others look at the negative I just wish you would stop going out and having such a good time while I keep working on my boat.
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post #22 of 82 Old 01-19-2010
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Bubbles, I probably missed it somewhere along the way, but what boat/how big are we talking here? If we're talking about an optimist, then yeah, you're foolish, but if we're talking about a big nauticat pilothouse, then maybe not so much.
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post #23 of 82 Old 01-19-2010
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Hey Bubble my nephew is 15 and he is one of my best crew this year he sailed my boat into my slip solo. I was on the boat but didnt do anything except finish my beer. I would trust him to pick me up if I fell in. If you have a life jacket on you have more then 30 sec. out there. Life comes at you fast and those kids you have will be adults before you know it.
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post #24 of 82 Old 01-19-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleheadMd View Post
You know, the more I review the initial post, the more I understand that I am a reckless and poor seaman.
A reckless and poor seaman? C'mon that's pushing it quite a bit.

You went out, you came back - with everyone safe and no emergencies. That's pretty damn good basic seamanship. Can you be safer? Of course, who can't be? Could an accident in these conditions kill you or your crew? Sure. But that can happen at any moment - anywhere.

Seriously, do sailors ever go out in Norway? In Alaska? Do they only singlehand?

I understand prudence. And I'm all for safety and preparation. But sometimes the advocacy for it - and the critique surrounding it gets a little over the top in my opinion.

Just sayin.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 01-19-2010 at 02:27 PM.
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post #25 of 82 Old 01-19-2010
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tommays...
I agree!!!
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post #26 of 82 Old 01-19-2010
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I'd highly recommend getting a throwing line in a bag, say 75' or so in length and a LifeSling. Both are really good ideas for anyone boating, especially in colder weather—where speed of recovering the MOB is critical.

Ideally, you will stay aboard and avoid falling in, but having the right gear in the case that you do fall in makes a huge difference. I also hope you and your crew are wearing drysuits, given the current air and water temps. A drysuit can make the difference between surviving a fall into cold water and retrieving a corpse.

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Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.

Last edited by sailingdog; 01-19-2010 at 03:26 PM.
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post #27 of 82 Old 01-19-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

I understand prudence. And I'm all for safety and preparation. But sometimes the advocacy for it - and the critique surrounding it gets a little over the top in my opinion.

Just sayin.
Smack,

Let's clarify here. This is not the case of an experienced sailor deciding to prepare his/her boat in a way that mitigates risk while winter sailing. I have absolutely no problem with that.

This is a case where an individual has decided to learn how to sail during the winter months, in a boat that is new to him. In this instance, the water temps were such that he had to break ice to leave his marina. He also invited two other rank novices to come along with him for the learning experience. Not only are they novices, but they are kids. It makes not a lick of difference whose kids they are. They have neither the experience nor the judgement to gauge the risks here.

How many of you learned to sail under similar circumstances? How many of you took your or someone else's kids along during the winter to learn to sail in your new boat?

And please spare me this crap about kids locked in their room with video games. My kids don't have them, don't play them, don't have cell phones, don't twitter, don't facebook, don't even have e-mail blah blah blah. They have been around sailboats since they were in diapers. I would confidently wager that they could sail circles around more than a few people posting to this thread. They take their boats off on their own to camp, hike, explore, all beyond the range of any parental supervision.

But as experienced as they are, and I am, I would not have them out sailing during the winter without being clipped in. And just as I would not bring them along with me as I taught myself how to sail in mid-January on Chesapeake Bay, I would never encourage anyone else to do so.

I will continue to point out dangers and risks when I see them, particularly where novice sailors are concerned. In this case, the O.P.'s MOB plan was/is seriously flawed, and yet you label remarks that call his attention to this "over the top".


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post #28 of 82 Old 01-19-2010
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JRP - I'm just saying that risk is relative. I'm not saying you're wrong - and you have every right and reason to point out the risks. Furthermore, you have WAY more experience than I, so I will always defer to your knowledge and experience.

But, based on what I've read here about Bubble's past experience on the water, in that particular area (his backyard basically), along with the conditions of the day, etc. - is he being truly "reckless" and a "poor seaman"? And isn't the answer to that question relative?

Advocating safety is NEVER wrong. Ever. But, it's equally true that every single sailor's standard of what is "acceptably" safe will be always different as well. And it's really easy to set that bar so high (especially when discussing it in a forum) that people really fear sailing...in any condition. So many things can go wrong.

Now, is it inherently dangerous to learn to sail (even on your own) in clear 50 degree weather, 1'-2' seas, and 10-15 knots? I think most would say no. So that brings us to the water temp - which seems to be the major issue here. I've been watching this fantastic video series about a guy single-handing around England in the middle of winter in a small boat - with the water frozen over in many cases. And there's been no outcry there. Again, it's relative. There are people around the world that go out and come back in these same conditions at all levels of experience. Absolute judgements are just difficult to make. And all I'm saying is that some room needs to be left for that.

I mean, what is the "acceptable" water temp for a learning sailor in the above conditions?

Let me be clear, I'm not advocating being unsafe, unprepared, or stupid by any means. Far from it. And I'm not singling you out for your caution. From everything I've read - you have nothing but the best of intentions and want to give the best possible advice to keep people safe. That's the way it should be.

I, personally, am just not as risk adverse. I think there is, and should be, some squish.

Finally, I know I'm out on a limb here, being the idiot that's arguing for risk tolerance. It's a pretty weak position when compared to absolute, impeccable standards of safety. But, I just don't think anyone, ever lives up to those in reality.

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post #29 of 82 Old 01-19-2010 Thread Starter
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John,

You're free to point all that out. Let me clarify my "MOB" plan though. I doubt it'll change your opinion but you deserve to have all of the facts.

1. Any "plan" I had, is only good for recovering my dead body because by the time someone throws me something, and gets the boat back to me, I'm a popsicle. Even a pro would be hard-pressed to get back to me in time.

2. I have a MOB throwline. My plan for retrieving a fallen kid was NOT to release the dinghy to them. I would throw the line, a throwable PFD, and commence MOB manuvers to recover the kid. The "dinghy plan" was for MY recovery, because I don't think my kids have good enough aim with the MOB throwline.

3. I didn't clip in. I acknowledge that as Mistake #5. I have a harness but I didn't employ it.

I must ask you John, does ANY marine experience count for anything with you? Or when you learn to sail, is anything you've done in a previous life, null and void? This isn't sarcasm or a jab, I'm sincerely asking.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that my 20 years in the navy was spent in an air-conditioned compartment onboard an aircraft carrier and that I never handled a mooring line, and never saw the sea.

I wasn't perfect, and I made mistakes yesterday, but I assure you, we didn't just "jump into the boat" and go sailing. They have been driving boats since they were 8, and I have spent considerable time drilling into them the differences between sailing and motoring, and how dangerous yesterday was.

Let's just rewind a bit here John. My MOB plan isnt' what's bothering you. You feel that I didn't have any business on the water at all in January unless I was with a certified instructor. You're entitled to your opinion.
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post #30 of 82 Old 01-19-2010
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The air temp is a NON-ISSUE the water TEMP is everything in the RISK-LEVEL

Take a dive in right now and you will be LUCKY if you can even breath without a substantial FORCED effort let alone assist in your own rescue

Its GUMBY suit time right now like it or not

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If a dirty bottom slows you down what do you think it does to your boat
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