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Challenging ASA ratings?

13K views 29 replies 11 participants last post by  Barquito 
#1 · (Edited)
I live in Utah and my sailing has been limited based on location. I am looking to charter over the next couple of years so i have chosen to take an ASA course then found a place where I could challenge the ratings. I am looking to challenge the following courses:

Basic Keelboat
Basic Coastal Cruising
Bareboat chartering
Coastal Navigation

I have not sailed regularly in a few years, but have been studying for it. Has anyone taken these courses or rating? I have studied the ASA standards and can answer any of the questions and will practice to perform the sailing skills in the only boat I have access to: a dingy.

For anyone who has taken these classes, is there anything I may need to know outside the ASA standards listing?
ASA Standards - American Sailing Association

Any other suggestions on preparing for these tests?
 
#2 ·
I'd point out that practicing some things in a dinghy will not help a whole lot in a 35' LOA, 10,000 lb. boat. For instance, motoring, docking under power, dealing with propwalk, setting/retrieving an anchor, etc., are all things that it TAKES ACTUAL EXPERIENCE to deal with to any degree of proficiency.

The skills and techniques needed for a keelboat are a bit different than those required for a sailing dinghy. If you haven't spent any time on a cruising keelboat, I would highly recommend you arrange to have some time on one before thinking of tackling the standards.

Book knowledge is nice, but no substitute for hands-on, in-the-boat experience, and a sailing dinghy won't really suffice to give you the skills you need for a cruising boat IMHO.
 
#3 ·
Thanks SD,
I know it is a hard road from here to there. I am a little nervous, however it is not my first dog and pony show. In the late 80s after sailing a hobby 16 I challenged Basic keel boat and passed then took a class that after 3 days let me charter boats but never got any ratings via ASA. I have sailed a lot since then but just have not been skipper of a large keel boat recently.

My guess even rusty I am a better sailor than someone who has never been on a sailboat before and takes a 7 day course. I am also trying to get on-board a keel boat in the mean time. I just want to make sure I don't fail based on knowledge. Does the ASA standards cover all questions on the written?
 
#4 · (Edited)
Hi Jordan,

For the sailing certifications:
There are two Parts to obtaining an ASA certification. Part one: is knowedge
( written test ) Part two: is the on-water demonstration of skills in an appropriate vessel.

Just to clarify...
Are you saying that you found an ASA school that will grant you those certifications by only taking the written tests? Or, will you also be asked to demonstrate the on-water skills as part of your challenge?

Keep in mind, that if you are challenging the skills portion, it's not a course.
there's no instructional piece to it. You will need to demonstrate all the skills correctly without the aid of instruction.

The bareboat charter, has a 48 hour component to it, as well. How will that be handled? Can you document, time served aboard other vessels of appropriate size as master or mate ?


To answer your question: The standards listed basically cover the knowledge you need to pass the written tests. In addition, you should know how a diesel engine works.

The navigation is a test only. Some mistakes can be cumulative. Meaning, there are multi part questions regarding a single plot. ie. If you navigate to the wrong place on a chart....you will also get the depth wrong and the type of bottom etc. The 1st 5 questions are fill-ins...chart symbols. It's not an easy test.

Good luck.
 
#5 ·
The on-water demonstration of skills is the part that being a dinghy sailor won't help with. That requires some actual time on a cruising sized boat IMHO.
 
#6 ·
Having just completed ASA 103/104 on Lake Superior, I can attest that sailing a dinghy will not get you that cert. As has been stated, there is book smart and then there is the sailing skills section of the certifications. SD & Tempest are right on, you need time on a larger boat for Coastal Cruising and Bareboat Charter. I also did ASA 105 last winter and as Tempest says, you start out wrong you will end up wrong. I had two other guys in my 103/104 class that had been sailing 20'-25' keel boats for about 5 years each, they just tested out of Basic Keel Boat. As with most things in life, a little practice and reading a book does not always get you where you need to go. But, you can always try I guess....
 
#7 ·
Jep,

My suggestion would be that you call a ASA school and ask them which classes you can test out of. I think that you will find that the answer will vary by school and what you are attemptiing to accomplish. There is a fee to test through classes which covers materials and man hours.

Certainly the written exam for 101/103/104/105, etc. could be passed quite easlily by studying the books that coincide with the class. I don't remember any questions on the test that were not covered in the book, and with the exception of 105 Navigation the questions are mostly multiple choice and covered by reading and digesting the material in the book. The Nav test is a lot harder than the Nav test for a Captains licence.

You will probably find schools that will test you through 101/103 if you are taking 104 or 104/105 from them. In that way they can also see and test you on the actual boat handling part of the courses as well. Dingy sailing will not prepare you to dock a 30 something 12,000 pound boat, but most of the sailing skills and terms are easily transferable.

Some sailing schools will let you charter one of their boats after you have passed 101/103 and they are comfortable with your learning. Most charter bases want to see your sailing resume and 104 level before you charter. Even if you could test out of all the ratings you will have to prove your ability to a charter base. If they do not feel you have the skills, they will require a captain for the time you need to get up to speed which will increase the cost of the vacation and delay departure in some cases.

You can pass all the tests and still not have a clue of what to do when the **** hits the fan unless you have had enough experience to have some logical reactions. If you owned the charter boat would you want the charter company letting someone taking your investment out based on the fact that they read about it in a book?

However, I am convinced that in some cases the available credit on your Visa card is enough to get you a boat for a week with some charter companies. Good luck with your quest.
 
#8 ·
Please keep in mind these are essentially marketing gimmicks and the ratings are somewhat meaningless. Clearly almost anyone can learn something new but as a prerequisite to chartering, these ratings are a joke. As others have said, the only way to learn is to do it and if you can demonstrate ability to handle a boat, no charter company will refuse you. Conversely, you can easily obtain all the certificates you want but not be able to get out of the slip.
 
#9 ·
Thanks for the info guys,

FYI, you are able to challenge ASA ratings, not all schools will let you, but I found one that will let you challenge all of them. I will have to pass all portions of the written and sailing skills.

I just want to make sure I am properly prepared for the knowledge portion of the tests. I have sailed boats this big 20 years ago as the captain with a boat full of non sailors. Its kind of scary looking back on it.

From 2000-2005 I lived on the coast and sailed as many as 100 days in one year, either racing (sometimes as navigator) or on my own 22' keel boat, which I could sail in and out of the slip solo. I am a much better sailor now then I was way back then but also some portions of my sailing knowledge and skill has eroded. A racer and day sailor does not make a good cruising sailor. I remember during a race on a boat filled with what I thought were good sailors, when our sail tore during a gale and we had to enter a harbor, I was the only one who knew "red right returning".

I agree some of these ratings are gimmes, especially if you take an expensive course and then take a year off and then charter a boat. I am using these ASA ratings as a way to force myself to study and re-learn what I used to know, brush up on my skills and get the ratings that will allow me to charter a boat. I imagine I can challenge and pass the first rating or two without any problem. The skill set of the ASA 104, I may need to rent a boat and captain for an hour or more to refresh my close quarter maneuvering skills in a larger boat.

ASA 105 is still up in the air though, if I have time to prepare for it. I am under the impression this is one of the harder ones. So I gather the answers are cumulative or at least the errors can be. What is the hardest concept you are asked to answer on the 105 test?

I am doing this later this month, I will let you know how it goes.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Another less stressful way to deal with it is to just see how many certs a given school will let you get in how many days.
I did 101,103 and 104 in 4 or 5 days don't remember which.
Even though I could have challenged them I thought it was worth it and actually learned a few things.
Studying up on the paperwork is a good idea before but just negotiating for the fastest cheapest course might be easier in the long run and more fun and probably not cost much more and have a more sure outcome.

If you challenge it is all about you. You blow a jibe and the instructor can fail you, he has no skin in the game and may want to teach you a lesson.
If you take the course even if it is a short cheap version the instructor in on your side and wants you to pass to show he is a good instructor.
 
#14 ·
Another less stressful way to deal with it is to just see how many certs a given school will let you get in how many days.
That was my original intention. However i need to find a time and a date when one other person was going to be enrolled in the class, which may not happen this year. Also the course was going to cost more than twice as much at least $700 difference than challenging the ratings and that school would not allow me to challenge the higher ratings, like ASA 105.

CB and tempest thanks for the suggestions and advice. I already have a stack of .7 mechanicals my preferred weapon for navigation will look for the other type of eraser. I have looked for the Pyzel book but it is no longer available it seems. I have the Yellow ASA coastal navigation book Chapmans, Annapolis, and Boaters Bowditch, which will have to do. The only chart I have is for the Puget Sound area, but will be taking the test in Oakland. If I remember correctly the charts for the course are from the East Coast? Any ideas where to get some practice questions to sharpen my skills?
 
#12 ·
I too found the ASA nav test more difficult than the GC license test.
There's alot of fill in answers, so no multiple quessing.

If I had to offer one suggestion, it would be to make sure that you read the question correctly and make sure you know what is being asked for.
There's no time limit..so take your time.

After that:

Be very comfortable with Set and Drift problems.......and 60d street...Speed/time/distance.
Know how to convert up and down ...through TVMDC ...remember...that **currents are always expressed in T

Measure twice...bring good nav tools..a proper pencil...# 2 is too fat!!

Know how to convert time from decimals...... 1/10 of an hour is 6 minutes or .1
Sounds easy, I know. Remember to use the latitude scale...not longitude..
Common, mistakes...that I see.

The best book, that I used to prepare for both CG and ASA nav, tests was Mike Pyzels. I believe ASA has started using it again...worth the investment imo.

Good Luck
 
#13 · (Edited)
I agree with Tempest on the Nav prep, nothing worse than reading a question wrong. I took the test and though I spent a half day before studying, I didn't think it was too bad. Use a nice mechanical pencil, a .7mm worked best for me as it has a stronger "lead" than a .5mm. Also, get a white Hi-Polymer eraser, Pentel makes them, instead of a Pink Pearl as these are a lot easier on paper and not as abrasive as the Pink Pearl. I used to be a draftsman in a previous career before CAD and those are what we used. Mike Pyzel's book is what we used last December and is a great book to learn from. Good luck! :cool:
 
#15 · (Edited)
Hi Jordan,

The Pyzel book is available on the ASA website ( Books and Charts)

Coastal Navigation & PowerPoint Presentation CD

The Charts we've used are Usually Block Island Sound or Long Island Sound, training charts.
If you buy the Pyzel book/cd you get the training chart...which also has chart #1 on the flip side.

Pyzels book has a ton of practice questions, that's why I like it.
I prefer it to Tom Tursi's book...but, you didn't hear that from me..:)

Basically the test takes you on a trip around one of the charts and asks you questions along the way... What's the course to steer, how far have you gone in x hours, what is the eta at the destination, what's the depth and the type of bottom at a specific set of coordinates, what's the range, what's the symbol... etc. etc...Also, you will be reading tide and current tables that they provide..... What's the visibility of the light...distance....how far away are you when you 1st see it..if you are x feet off the water...( dipping the light)

If you answer all the questions in the pyzel book, and get comfortable with the problems, you should have no problem with the test....short of giving you the answers..this is the best advice I can give.
 
#18 ·
I doubt it... radar and celestial navigation are outside the scope of that course AFAIK. What do you mean by Radio Nav questions??
 
#19 ·
What do you mean by Radio Nav questions??
I am studying 3 different books for the nav skills, each has a chapter or paragraph on sextant for determining a COP, (circle of position) based on an objects height, not so much for celestial navigation. They also talk about radars in the same way to determine LOPs.

By Radio Nav, I meant electronic navigation, GPS, Loran, RDF?

I have been skipping these chapters as I too am guessing it is out of the scope of the certification. I also don't want to weigh down my head with information I can't use until I have radar, sextant or GPS to use. However, I don't want any surprises on the test.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Jordan,

No Radar or Celestial navigation questions on 105 both are separate courses and tests. I can't remember any Radio related questions, but if their are they would be related to Maydays or Pan Pans...but I think they are on the coastal cruising exam.
I don't recall any questions regarding radio direction finders...but if their were they would be related to a bearing...as part of a position finding problem.

105 is: plotting, set and drift, chart symbols, depth, and speed time and distance problems, danger bearings etc
 
#21 ·
I agree that Maydays and Pan-Pans would be on the exam. I don't think RDFs are though, since they've fallen out of common usage, in favor of GPS and possibly LORAN.
 
#24 ·
Yup...well aware of that Boasun.. Used to use an RDF many years ago when crewing on my friend's grandfather's boat. :D
 
#25 ·
RDFs are still used in airplanes, except they are called ADF. They too are being abandoned though. Still come in handy because if you are flying a plane equipped with one you can listen to the game or your favorite AM station en-route. Or simply use it to fly straight to your hometown station.


I just got off the phone with the charter company I am interested in using. The owner told me my resume speaks for itself and I would not need a rating to charter his boats. The most I would need, would be a one hour $70 checkout to practice getting in and out of the slip, which I would want to do anyways.

So the ASA classes are not needed but I am still tempted to take them to get some recency of experience, and to make me finish all my studying. Not sure its worth it at this point though.

I might just take the 105 which does not have any prerequisites.
 
#26 ·
Qualificatons for Charter

Jordan,

I am a Navy Sailing E-MS and instructor rated skipper, as well as an ASA 201 through 205 instructor. I am the Training Commodore for a sailing club in Chesapeake Bay that awards over 80 Navy Sailing and ASA 101-103 certs each year, and about 30 of the higher level certs. We charter about 60 boats each year in Annapolis and the British Virgin Islands.

First of all, I want to echo all of the responses that have been made by contributors to this threead to your plans.

First of all, you feel that having ASA certs will get your foot in the door with a charterer. However, most charter companies are looking at the "whole package." The presentation of a qualification card or book loaded with stickers is not going to interest them by itself. A sailing resume is one thing that they are looking for. They will want to see evidence of experience. Another piece of paper that they are looking for is appreciation notes from other charter companies on how well you took care of their boat. They most important qualification that they will want is your credit card. They will want to see that they can hit it for at least the deductible on their insurance ($1,500 or higher).

You say that you have "found" a charter company that will let you charter based on a docking OTW evaluation that they will conduct for you. Whenever a chartering company tells you they need to see your skills demonstrated, then that means they have some doubts.They know that you have spent a lot of money in flying to their destination and are probably willing to fork out the money for a skipper vice turning around and flying back home when they tell you "sorry".

From what you have described, you have a lot of experience in 20 to 30 foot keelboats, but practically no experience in larger boats with auxiliary propulsion. I do not think that your demonstration will be "successful." The chartering company will then turn to you and say "OK..you will need to take a skipper with you that we will provide for you for $400 per day." It does not sound as though your pocket book is prepared for that.

In Annapolis, the chartering company we use (Annapolis Bay Charters)is familar with our training standards, and does not require skipper demonstrations. In the BVI, we normally use Horizon Charters at Nanny Cay Marina in Tortola. They do not require an OTW from us either. However, for most of the charterers (not us), Horizon doesn't generally let the charterers maneuver the boats in the marina. They take the boats to a safe T-head that the charterers can depart from.

Qualifications, whether they come from ASA, Navy Sailing, US Sailing, or the Royal Yachting Association simply demonstrate that you have demonstrated a minimum level of experience and skill. It is rare that any charter company would take a "qual card" at face value without also looking at a sailing resume. Keep in mind that a "forged" sailing resume will be viewed by most chartering companies as "negligence", which means if you have an "oops", you are paying the entire bill and the insurance company won't be a part of it.

As for your efforts at challenging the ASA certifications, the first thing that you need to realize is that all instructional facilities with any of the qualification organizations go through an inspection process, management plans, and ethics agreements to ensure that they are operating sound programs. ASA, for example, strongly discourages sailing qualification "puppy mills" where students with no experience start at ASA 101 on week one, and end up with ASA 106 on week five. The same holds true for challenges.

I entertain about 15 challenge requests each year at various levels. With only about 2 exceptions, the challengers overestimate their skills significantly. I usually ask them to take the requisite exams first. When they fail the exam (which will usually be the case), I will not have already waisted the time of instructor and, potentially, a crew to evaluate them.

Based on your skills to date, I would let you take the 101 and the 103 exams. If you passed, I would let you take an evaluation on a Capri/Catalina 22 with outboard propulsion. If you did well on the OTW, especially the marina maneuvering portion, I would give you your 101 and 103.

However, I would not consider you for 104/105 without your having taken a 2 day classroom piloting course and an additional 86 hours of day sailing and 20 hours of night sailing on a 30 foot plus boat with inboard auxiliary propulsion. As part of that experience, you would get practical training on how to conduct a visual navigation plot. I don't know of anyone who has passed the 105 without having had practical experince with piloting first. This experience would also include lots of close quarter maneuvering in a marina, reefing and sail trim training, use of preventers, diesel operation and basic repair, electrical sytem training and casualties, propane stove usage, anchoring, basic weather, contact management, VHF communications, man overboard techniques, use of jack lines, and mooring to a buoy. You would also have needed to have demonstrated every sailing skill on the ASA examination forms for 104, and a repeat of the 103 skills.

I am sorry to say this, but I think that you are overestimating your skills for this adventure and could find yourself in a great deal of trouble. I know that you want to get out there in the big boats and the big water without spending a lot of money. But what you won't want is the feeling of fear or frustration on your part or the part of your crew when something comes up that you can't handle. It will become very apparent to everyone very quickly when you can't, and it will kill their confidence in you as a skipper. Most of all, you don't want the situation to deteriorate into boat damage or personal injury.

There is an ASA school not very far from you....Sail Western Colorado

I would send the owner a note and see if he would let you challenge 101 and 103. You will want to do that the day prior to the actual 101 and 103 class. If you don't make the grade, then you can stick around and take their three day class for $600. They offer the 104 as part of their BVI cruising program. Going as crew will cost less than chartering a boat yourself, and you will gain valuable experience.
 
#27 ·
Hi Moorehal,

I appreciate all your great advice and suggestions. I think you are underestimating my experience, possibly almost as much as I may be overestimating it.:D

Twenty years ago I challenged the bareboat rating and passed it, never having been on a keel boat before. After a few months of sailing and a 3 day course I was able to charter bigger boats including a Hans Christian 33 and other boats in other areas along the west coast, and a night charter in the SF bay.

I was probably in over my head in those days but it all worked out. Since then I have sailed a lot more, and am a much better sailor now than then. I have a lot of time on boats on 35, 38 and 45 feet in length often as navigator, tactician or trimmer, and sometimes helmsman.

I would not mind taking a class I feel I would benefit from. Your course description for the ASA 104 seems like a good fit for what I need to work on. If I could find an advanced or intensive course I would love that is up to my skill level I would love to participate in one.

I am pretty confident in my ability to challenge the navigation portion. I was a decent navigator 20 years ago when I took my first sailing class, but now I am a professional pilot and flight instructor. Most of my piloting takes place at 200 knots. This also makes airfare not an object if I am going to take a class it won't be in the shifty mountain winds of the Rockies but one of the coasts.

I was in communication with a school owner that certifies instructors. I had planned on sailing with the owner to challenge some ratings, and let her evaluate my skills. The time I had allotted did not work out but I plan on following up over the winter.
 
#28 ·
Yikes!

I could see challenging keelboat with your experience, but would highly recommend taking a coastal cruising and bareboat course to fill any knowledge/skill gaps that I am sure exist AND gain critical experience on a heavier displacement boat. Safety and confidence if nothing else. Plus respect for the company or owner of the boat you plan on chartering. Dinghies have little relation to bareboating in my opinion. Having more than adequate time training/practicing on a similar boat you plan on chartering is key.
 
#29 ·
Just felt I owed a follow up with my results. I spent the last 6 years living in Utah with little sailing. I moved last year to San Diego County. My schedule was fairly busy not allowing me to sail much. I joined a club that allowed me to take out boats to 25 feet. I took out a boat 3 times, read the ASA 103 book and found a place that let me challenge the 101 and 103 courses. I passed the written portions with 90%+. Spent one hour of the checkout docking and motoring as I knew that was my weak point. We then went out of the harbor where I was able to tack and jibe the boat solo (although I was very sloppy with a wheel) to prove I knew how to sail. We spent some more time doing MOB I mean COB drills. So for less than $300 I got 2 hours of private lessons, and walked away with my ASA 101 and 103 ratings.

Shortly after that a girl I met through work and told about sailing called and asked if I could take out her 5 friends. So here is the happy captain, and his crew, all of which payed their share of the charter of the 32 foot boat.
 

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#30 ·
Thanks for the follow-up. I like when there is some closure to old threads. I think a lot of charter companies could care less what ratings you have. They just want to see some evidence that you will not destroy their boat (usually that you have sailed a similar boat without destroying it).

ASA 101 $150
ASA 103 $150
Charter with 6 girls... priceless:laugher
 
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