I guessing we should've reefed or ? - Page 3 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Learning to Sail
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree2Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #21  
Old 10-07-2011
SailBerkeley's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 8
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
SailBerkeley is on a distinguished road
Ideally you would depower the main by reefing as you suggest. But barring that, the next alternative would be to sail jib only.
__________________
Sailing Instructor
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #22  
Old 10-15-2011
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: chicago
Posts: 2
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
strictlysail is on a distinguished road
Incline meter

i would suggest two things: more experience and purchasing an inclinometer, preferably one with a micro meter along with a macro meter. Next to a windex, this is, for me, the second most important instrument on board. These meters cost $14 and can be attached with Velcro. Two basic rules, sailboats need to heel at a minimum of 7 degrees to be efficient and they shouldn't really heel more than 30 degrees. In light winds, you may have to induce heel just to get to the minimum and in heavy winds, we all try to reduce incline. The rule in heavy winds: at 25 degree of incline, begin to reduce sail. 15 degree of incline is considered most comfortable. I always give the task of incline monitoring to the person aboard who is least comfortable with heeling. If you don't have one, or are on a boat that doesn't have one, another way of measuring is this: our bodies react to heel automatically. At 15 degrees of incline, one foot automatically reacts by steadying our bodies. At 20 degrees of incline, two feet are needed to stabize our bodies, at 25 degrees of incline, our bodies begin to almost become straight trying to stabilize the effect of heeling.

One other thought: for a sailing novice, I would never suggest using or relying on steering upwind to reduce heel. You are only asking for trouble when the wind shifts or you make a 25 degree steering error. Reduce sail instead, usually taking down the headsail is best, I think. If you are caught with too much sail up, it's better if you don't have to go forward to drop sails. You can then reef the main if needed.

I would also agree with the comment of sinking j24s. Consider that there have been more than 6000 j24s built, and usually raced hard. This boat easily stacks up against any other for flatation stability.

A j22 is a great, full keep boat and should have no problems maintaining stability at any wind level. The repairs in question were/are minor.

My guests comfort is paramount for me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #23  
Old 10-15-2011
davidpm's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Madison
Posts: 3,786
Thanks: 200
Thanked 48 Times in 40 Posts
Rep Power: 8
davidpm is on a distinguished road
I think that sailing unlike many other sports is particularly difficult for spouses to learn together. On a boat someone has to be the captain and sometimes decisions have to be made and actions executed quickly. And to be frank why should she listen to or trust your decision making or skills. You are a newbe and she knows it.

You can continue to go out together on perfect days when there is plenty of time to co-captain and have a great time.
If it is possible you might think about going out by yourself in heavy air whenever possible.

Pushing myself and the boat and at the same time caring for my wife's well being were not goals I could always accomplish on the same sail. So what I did was take her out on all the good days but I still went out on the marginal days by myself. After a few years and some fog, rain, storms and all sorts of major screw-ups on my private sails she eventually got to point where she knows that if I'm taking a boat out I can sail it safely by myself and if she doesn't like what is going on she can go below and not feel guilty or that she is letting me down.
I don't know about your wife but in my wife's case I believe her biggest fear was not really the boat but of not being able to physically do what was needed or doing something wrong.
When she finally got enough confidence in me most of her fears went away.
She still don't like lightning however, apparently my supposed superb sailing skills don't protect us from direct lighting strikes.

And frankly now that I've bashed around a few times in 30k plus I don't like stressing the rig, sails or my bones that much and when I have the chance I skip it.

Last edited by davidpm; 10-16-2011 at 10:53 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #24  
Old 10-16-2011
CalebD's Avatar
Tartan 27' owner
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 4,592
Thanks: 4
Thanked 92 Times in 85 Posts
Rep Power: 7
CalebD will become famous soon enough
All you have to do is a google serach of 'J 24 sinking' and you will get this: Google
Great, fast boats but prone to knock downs.
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water~ sweat, tears, or the sea." ~Isak Denesen

Everybody has one:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #25  
Old 10-17-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Posts: 2,259
Thanks: 2
Thanked 39 Times in 39 Posts
Rep Power: 4
MarkSF is on a distinguished road
You took a racer out on a windy day and that's why you had a hard time of it.

J-22 has sail area / displacement ratio of 24 and weighs 1800lb with a 700lb keel. That puts it in the class of lightweight racer and it's going to need to be reefed earlier (at least if you want to keep the heeling down) than a heavier cruiser. With winds of 12-17 knots, your level of experience, and your SO on board, I'd have been reefing the main from the start.

Does anyone have more of a heavy cruiser you can try chartering? My first time sailing the late (Hunt version) Cal 24 was a revelation after the lighter boats - stiff, stable, predictable, sea-kindly. Just what you need to get your SO some confidence.

An important skill is heaving to so you can have a break, reef, a sandwich, whatever.
__________________
1984 Bristol 31.1
Alameda, California, USA
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #26  
Old 10-17-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Posts: 2,259
Thanks: 2
Thanked 39 Times in 39 Posts
Rep Power: 4
MarkSF is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthemj24 View Post
The same could be said about the Santana 20, however you never seem to drag that into a thread.

From the Santana 20 class website



I am not at all defensive about J24s, but I will be vocal if someone is exaggerating the issues with the boat. It is not difficult to handle in heavy wind, and the sinking issue is solved be simply latching the cockpit lazarettes. If your intent is to be helpful, then you ought to include that simple bit of information on how to avoid sinking.
Does sound defensive to me. It would be churlish not to recognise that there are cruising sailboats and racing ones with different priorities. The J boats tend to fall into the latter category and are thus harder to sail in high winds than the former. I think that's the point Mr. Schock was making.
__________________
1984 Bristol 31.1
Alameda, California, USA
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #27  
Old 10-17-2011
davidpm's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Madison
Posts: 3,786
Thanks: 200
Thanked 48 Times in 40 Posts
Rep Power: 8
davidpm is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
Does anyone have more of a heavy cruiser you can try chartering? My first time sailing the late (Hunt version) Cal 24 was a revelation after the lighter boats - stiff, stable, predictable, sea-kindly. Just what you need to get your SO some confidence.
Great idea I chartered a Hunter 33 a few months ago in Pensacola FL. We sail a Catalina 25 here in Long Island Sound.
She steered the Hunter almost the whole time even in 25 knots and was very proud of herself that she wasn't bothered at all.

The boat makes a really big difference.
What was interesting is that at first she was very leery of steering the bigger boat but after just a couple of hours she found it much easier to control since it had a wheel and everything was so much slower.
So now she likes the idea of a much bigger boat, Sigh!!

Last edited by davidpm; 10-17-2011 at 10:38 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #28  
Old 10-17-2011
Water Lover
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New Mexico, USA (Heron, Elephant Butte lakes); Arizona (Lake Pleasant)
Posts: 710
Thanks: 3
Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts
Rep Power: 5
rgscpat is on a distinguished road
Race boats like the J/22 and J/24 in strong breeze are designed to have an adequate crew actively hiking. Without that rail weight, and with a nervous significant other on board, reducing sail area has do be done much sooner than when in racing mode. One question that probably should be asked, given that this particular J/22 had sail controls in poor condition:
Was this particular boat set up for reefing? Some racing sails don't even have reef points. If a boat's sails aren't set up for reefing, then it would not be the best choice for a nervous beginner. And, with a hanked-on genoa or jib and a curved foredeck without a rail to provide confidence, I don't think your spouse would have polite words for you if you asked her to go forward to douse the headsail. And she might be just as nervous about you going forward and leaving her alone in control of the "monster".

PS, the concern about J/24s sinking seems partly based on older J/24s with cockpit locker doors that weren't secured, driven hard in race mode in heavy air (spinnaker wipeouts with an inattentive crew etc.). If you make sure that your boat has latchable lockers doors that secure properly, that will be good for peace of mind. Now, I think that if Bill had really meant to trash talk the 24s, he would have brought up the vermiculite... but now we're drifting well off course.

Oh, and if you really want your spouse to hate you, try teaching yourself aggressive spinnaker maneuvers in 20 knots while sailing short-handed (without a talented full-sized crew approaching the 275 kg/605 lb. J/22 class limit). It can be spectacular!

Last edited by rgscpat; 10-17-2011 at 11:19 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #29  
Old 10-18-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 526
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
CapnBilll is on a distinguished road
I have been in this exact situation. Panicking seasick wife, learning to sail under heavy air, J24 heeling to much for comfort. I did reef though, I couldn't find anything on the boat that looked like reefing gear, so I finally used the sailties by tying them together end to end from the reefpoint to the outhaul cleat. It worked and made the boat much more manageble, even though I didn't have perfect sail shape.

The Admiral insisted we go back early anyway.
__________________
The Sun has Risen on a New Day filled with the Promise of Adventure.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #30  
Old 10-19-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Southern California
Posts: 200
Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 6
glassdad is on a distinguished road
The time to reef is at the moment that you think it might be time to reef. If you are inexperienced (or your passengers or crew are inexperienced), reef early. Additionally if you are in heavy winds where the rudder is exposed, reefing will make the boat handle better and alloow you to sail faster. The boat wont be over powered and over heeled. Everyone will have a better time.
__________________
s/v Odyssey
Catalina 30
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Depowering sails - when reefed main and smallest jib aren't enough, what next? Stearmandriver Learning to Sail 62 04-21-2011 02:09 PM
Flattening Reefed Mainsail, or why no Cunningham? NCC320 General Discussion (sailing related) 10 11-15-2010 04:52 PM
Foot of main when reefed? jaschrumpf Learning to Sail 12 09-10-2010 12:39 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:45 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.