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  #11  
Old 03-08-2012
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Re: can only tack close reach, can't close-haul

Those angles are far too wide for any boat but a square rigger... It's got to have something to do with your ability to sheet the sails in sufficiently, or your perceptions are a bit off.

A windex will help, telltales on the jib will too. Pictures of what's going on under sail wouldn't hurt.. I must say you've got my curiosity piqued.. 80 degrees???
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Old 03-08-2012
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can only tack close reach, can't close-haul

I will provide a map and track of my movements via that gps motion-x application hopefully by Saturday evening. It will provide a map visual of the angles of degree. I actually hope I'm missing something or misreading by 5-10 degrees. So, if not 80 , 75 degrees. Thanks
For all the assistance and suggestions.
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Old 03-08-2012
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Re: can only tack close reach, can't close-haul

Bring you main traveller to the windward side and bring the boom over center or even past center a bit, as well bring your foresail as close to the cabin as possible.

With the sails in those positions you will be able to sail as close to the wind as possible. A production boat should be able to tack from one side to the other within 90 to 100º. A performance boat should get within 70 to 80º. And the faster you go the closer you can get.
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Re: can only tack close reach, can't close-haul

Quote:
Originally Posted by robbieland View Post
I will provide a map and track of my movements via that gps motion-x application hopefully by Saturday evening. It will provide a map visual of the angles of degree. I actually hope I'm missing something or misreading by 5-10 degrees. So, if not 80 , 75 degrees. Thanks
For all the assistance and suggestions.
That's fine, as far as it goes, but we won't be able to tell how you've sheeted, steered or the boat setup. Further, if this lake is flowing at all (ie one of those 'bulge in the river' lakes) your GPS track may be influenced by current too, yet another distraction.

Take photos and post them if you can.. that will be more helpful.
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Old 03-09-2012
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Re: can only tack close reach, can't close-haul

If you have an 'A-frame' shaped main sheet (no traveler), you may not be able to trim the boom in too far. Once it is in all the way to the stern corner, then tightening will only pull the boom down rather than in.
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Re: can only tack close reach, can't close-haul

Lack of pointing ability is going to be more related to headsail apparent wind angles at the luff.. we really need to see just what the sail looks like, where the apparent wind angle really is when he's 'as high as he can go'.. tough to do over the internet...
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Old 03-10-2012
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Re: can only tack close reach, can't close-haul

I sailed an original DS for some years as a kid. They ain't particularly weatherly, being about half as wide as they are long and very flat-bottomed. But you should still be able to get higher than 80 degrees true.

You'll need a compass on board. Doesn't even need to be calibrated, especially. Your goal is to determine your tacking angles. If you are sailing 130 degrees on one tack, as high as you can point before your jib luff breaks, then you tack and are sailing 235 degrees on the opposite tack, that's 105* between tacks, or 52.5* to the true wind. That's probably the best you can hope for on a DS with old sails.

Now you have something useful to compare to your GPS track. If your compass says you are tacking thru 105 degrees, but your GPS shows your angles over ground to be 160 degrees, one of two things is happening: either you are fighting adverse currents, or you are making bodacious leeway. Not much you can do about currents, except milk the eddies, the shoreline, and the shallows.

Leeway you can do something about. Try to sail the boat as flat as possible; the DS has really soft chines, so heeling doesn't help the hull bite the water any. You want the centerboard as vertical as possible. Check the CB and rudder & see if they are clean, undamaged, and not wobbling all over. Trim the jib as close to the centerline as possible while still keeping some draft in it. THEN trim the main. Just sheet in until the luff is barely soft. You should see a hint of backwind-ing, just behind the mast. If the main is board flat, it's probably oversheeted.

Trim the jib in tight, sail as high as you can go before the sail luffs, & that's your heading. Once you have that, trim the main to the edge of luffing or just barely luffing. Oversheeting the main will stall the boat and is the most frequent cause of excessive leeway.

Light winds will hurt your pointing ability, because you need more draft to make the boat go, and that widens your attack angle. Better to foot off & accept fatter tacks. Heavy winds will hurt your pointing ability, as the boat heels, draft in the sails moves back, and you are forced to crack the sheets to spill excess wind. Every boat has its sweet spot; for dinghies and light keel boats, that can be pretty narrow. Our SJ21 likes the wind between 8 and 14 kts true and needs heel angles between 10 and 15 degrees, or it won't point worth a damn. We can tack thru 80 degrees in 10 kts if we sit one person on the low side. If it is light, or really windy, or there's any chop, we're lucky to get 100 degrees.

Higher boat speed (relative to true wind speed) hurts pointing ability, as the apparent wind shifts onto your nose. Many performance multihulls can't point above 55 degrees TWA cuz boat speed is 2x wind speed! You'll learn to fall off in the lulls (header), but you can point higher during puffs (lift). Chop will kill your pointing ability dead in this boat. Keep experimenting & let us know what you find out.
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Last edited by bobmcgov; 03-10-2012 at 10:22 PM.
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Old 03-10-2012
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Re: can only tack close reach, can't close-haul

What does the tiller feel like when you attempt to go close hauled? If there is adverse pressure (excess 'weather helm') on the tiller/rudder you will not be able to 'point'.

There are many conditions that will cause excess weather or lee helm
1. loose rigging, below correct tensions
2. sheeting the mainsail too close or 'above' the centerline towards the weather side
3. For pointing in 10-15kts. the aft end of second from the top batten should be somewhat parallel to the boats centerline.
4. A dacron mainsail with 'boltrope' if not correctly raised and then additionally tensioned by the halyard tension will be very full draft, draft aft and with the leech 'cupped up' toward windward = weather helm and dragging rudder - see below.
5. a too loose headstay, one that is sagging off to leeward will cause the boat to 'skid' to leeward and will prevent 'pointing'.
6. get and apply a full set of tell tales for your sails - behind the luff, at mid-cord, and at the leeches .... its IMPOSSIBLE to have good trim and sail shape without them.

How raise a 'boltroped' dacron mainsail: How to properly RAISE a woven dacron mainsail - SailboatOwners.com

How to adjust for correct headstay tension: http://www.ftp.tognews.com/GoogleFil...f%20Hollow.pdf
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Old 03-10-2012
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Re: can only tack close reach, can't close-haul

Quote:
Originally Posted by robbieland View Post
i have an O'day Daysailer 2 sailing in north carolina lakes and im unable to achieve more of a turn to close-haul. ive been sailing since October of last year and have yet to have more of angle into wind, can only move at a close reach. im trimming sails in as mush as possible as well tried other forms, but now wondering and hoping im missing something. the winds are usually 5 to 15knts. so, when tacking the close-reach just adds time to my advance, but would like to improve to have more control. if i turn more toward a close-haul, trim in sails or adjust accordingly, i loose wind and motion. any ideas? im sailing with the jib and main. thanks
Does that mean you are new to sailing? back to basics. the beam reach is the fastest point of sail. when you sheet in and turn upwind to sail close hauled you will loose some speed and the closer you get to the point when the jib starts to luff on the leading edge the slower the boat will be. many beginners have a hard time finding the small difference between pointing properly and pinching to high into the wind
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Old 03-11-2012
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Re: can only tack close reach, can't close-haul

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Originally Posted by overbored View Post
Does that mean you are new to sailing? back to basics. the beam reach is the fastest point of sail. when you sheet in and turn upwind to sail close hauled you will loose some speed and the closer you get to the point when the jib starts to luff on the leading edge the slower the boat will be. many beginners have a hard time finding the small difference between pointing properly and pinching to high into the wind
Really good point from OverBored about pinching -- sailing very high offers diminishing returns, and pinching can actually lose you more in leeway than it gains you in tack angle. That's why I suggest you bring along a compass, or use the compass feature on your GPS unit. You need to determine whether the problem lies with your heading (which direction the bow is pointed) or with your course (which way the boat is moving). Deficiencies in heading are likely attributable to sail condition, sail trim, mast rake, or rig tuning. If your heading is okay but your course is lousy, that's probably down to currents, appendages (keel & rudder), heel angle, or misunderstanding of wind forces. But never fear -- all of these issues can be fixed.

Perhaps the best way to fix your issues fast is to ask an experienced small-boat sailor out with you. Second best is to sail alongside another boat, trying to match their heading and sail trim. If they are pointing higher than you, you have a heading problem. If you are pointing at the same angle but your boat is sliding sideways relative to theirs, you have a course problem. Or a Daysailer. (Fabulous little boats, BTW, one of my all-time favorites. But ja, they do slide.)
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