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can only tack close reach, can't close-haul

14K views 43 replies 19 participants last post by  rgscpat 
#1 ·
i have an O'day Daysailer 2 sailing in north carolina lakes and im unable to achieve more of a turn to close-haul. ive been sailing since October of last year and have yet to have more of angle into wind, can only move at a close reach. im trimming sails in as mush as possible as well tried other forms, but now wondering and hoping im missing something. the winds are usually 5 to 15knts. so, when tacking the close-reach just adds time to my advance, but would like to improve to have more control. if i turn more toward a close-haul, trim in sails or adjust accordingly, i loose wind and motion. any ideas? im sailing with the jib and main. thanks
 
#2 ·
Check your sail shape. If the max camber is more than a third of the way back from the luff of the sail, your sails aren't properly shaped. If you have a "flattening reef", use it. Also, try playing with the mainsail outhaul, vang tension, and traveller position, as well as the position of the jib fair-lead. However, if your boat's sails are old and blown out you may not be able to get a good shape no matter what you do.

You also might just be pinching a bit too much. If you don't have them, instal a tell-tail or two on each side of the jib about a foot or so from the luff. This will tell you if you're pinching a bit earlier than a luffing sail. If your sails appear to have a good shape, but your tell-tails are flapping, and you still can't get enough speed to properly tack, you just need to fall off a 2 or 3 degrees.

Finally, a light little boat like yours will be prone to having a hard time tacking when the wind picks up, particularly if there is some chop. If everything looks as good as you can get it, and you're still having trouble, just fall off a few degrees about 5 or 10 seconds before you tack to build up speed, then tack as usual.
 
#3 ·
What is your apparent wind angle closest to the wind?

Do you have a compass? Check your bearing on one tack, then tack through the wind and check again. If you are at or less than 90 degrees you are probably fine given your boat.

You may not be able to sail closer than about 45 degrees off true wind.
 
#4 ·
I'll let the experts correct me if I'm wrong. But I had one small boat with a narrow stern that didn't provide much flotation. Hanging a 4 stroke motor off the motor mount had so much leverage that it changed the trim and leaned the mast backwards and caused heavy weather helm. To stay on course, I had to pull the tiller toward me quite hard. The rudder was acting like a sea anchor and slowing my headway. Removing the motor and raking my mast forward made a big difference, it sailed much better.

And I agree with the previous two posters.
 
#5 ·
Some possibilities:
- shrouds (stbd, port fore and aft stays) too loose allowing mast to bend
- center board and/or rudder smaller then spec
- sails well blown out
- perhaps you are heading up as high into the wind as you can and are in effect close hauled
More info:
DaySailer.org
 
#6 ·
How old are the sails? I gained 10 degrees to windward when I got new sails - and the old ones did not look excessively blown.

How are you defining close-hauled? Do you have a Davis Windex on top of the mast? The instructions have you set the close hauled angle at anything from 25 degrees upwards. Whoever installed mine set the indicators at 25 degrees and of course I can't sail at that angle without losing a lot of speed. The problem lies in the expectations, not with the boat.
 
#8 ·
.....How are you defining close-hauled? Do you have a Davis Windex on top of the mast? ....
This was my question too... how are you determining that you can't get 'close hauled'?
 
#9 ·
Yes, might very well be my sails. The jib does look Good, especially compared to the main. I'm going out again this weekend and try a few things such as attempting a barber , check shrouds, the compass is good idea and I may finally attach the windex. My interest is in or my somewhat desire is to reach atleast 50 - 60degrees into truewind, but I'm achieving more of at best 80. Then I loose wind. The cb is all the way down. But, as stated, this is perhaps close to best the DS 2 can provide.
 
#11 ·
Those angles are far too wide for any boat but a square rigger... It's got to have something to do with your ability to sheet the sails in sufficiently, or your perceptions are a bit off.

A windex will help, telltales on the jib will too. Pictures of what's going on under sail wouldn't hurt.. I must say you've got my curiosity piqued.. 80 degrees???:eek:
 
#12 ·
I will provide a map and track of my movements via that gps motion-x application hopefully by Saturday evening. It will provide a map visual of the angles of degree. I actually hope I'm missing something or misreading by 5-10 degrees. So, if not 80 , 75 degrees. Thanks
For all the assistance and suggestions.
 
#14 ·
That's fine, as far as it goes, but we won't be able to tell how you've sheeted, steered or the boat setup. Further, if this lake is flowing at all (ie one of those 'bulge in the river' lakes) your GPS track may be influenced by current too, yet another distraction.

Take photos and post them if you can.. that will be more helpful.
 
#13 ·
Bring you main traveller to the windward side and bring the boom over center or even past center a bit, as well bring your foresail as close to the cabin as possible.

With the sails in those positions you will be able to sail as close to the wind as possible. A production boat should be able to tack from one side to the other within 90 to 100º. A performance boat should get within 70 to 80º. And the faster you go the closer you can get.
 
#16 ·
Lack of pointing ability is going to be more related to headsail apparent wind angles at the luff.. we really need to see just what the sail looks like, where the apparent wind angle really is when he's 'as high as he can go'.. tough to do over the internet...:eek:
 
#17 · (Edited)
I sailed an original DS for some years as a kid. They ain't particularly weatherly, being about half as wide as they are long and very flat-bottomed. But you should still be able to get higher than 80 degrees true.

You'll need a compass on board. Doesn't even need to be calibrated, especially. Your goal is to determine your tacking angles. If you are sailing 130 degrees on one tack, as high as you can point before your jib luff breaks, then you tack and are sailing 235 degrees on the opposite tack, that's 105* between tacks, or 52.5* to the true wind. That's probably the best you can hope for on a DS with old sails.

Now you have something useful to compare to your GPS track. If your compass says you are tacking thru 105 degrees, but your GPS shows your angles over ground to be 160 degrees, one of two things is happening: either you are fighting adverse currents, or you are making bodacious leeway. Not much you can do about currents, except milk the eddies, the shoreline, and the shallows.

Leeway you can do something about. Try to sail the boat as flat as possible; the DS has really soft chines, so heeling doesn't help the hull bite the water any. You want the centerboard as vertical as possible. Check the CB and rudder & see if they are clean, undamaged, and not wobbling all over. Trim the jib as close to the centerline as possible while still keeping some draft in it. THEN trim the main. Just sheet in until the luff is barely soft. You should see a hint of backwind-ing, just behind the mast. If the main is board flat, it's probably oversheeted.

Trim the jib in tight, sail as high as you can go before the sail luffs, & that's your heading. Once you have that, trim the main to the edge of luffing or just barely luffing. Oversheeting the main will stall the boat and is the most frequent cause of excessive leeway.

Light winds will hurt your pointing ability, because you need more draft to make the boat go, and that widens your attack angle. Better to foot off & accept fatter tacks. Heavy winds will hurt your pointing ability, as the boat heels, draft in the sails moves back, and you are forced to crack the sheets to spill excess wind. Every boat has its sweet spot; for dinghies and light keel boats, that can be pretty narrow. Our SJ21 likes the wind between 8 and 14 kts true and needs heel angles between 10 and 15 degrees, or it won't point worth a damn. We can tack thru 80 degrees in 10 kts if we sit one person on the low side.:laugher If it is light, or really windy, or there's any chop, we're lucky to get 100 degrees.

Higher boat speed (relative to true wind speed) hurts pointing ability, as the apparent wind shifts onto your nose. Many performance multihulls can't point above 55 degrees TWA cuz boat speed is 2x wind speed! You'll learn to fall off in the lulls (header), but you can point higher during puffs (lift). Chop will kill your pointing ability dead in this boat. Keep experimenting & let us know what you find out.:)
 
#18 ·
What does the tiller feel like when you attempt to go close hauled? If there is adverse pressure (excess 'weather helm') on the tiller/rudder you will not be able to 'point'.

There are many conditions that will cause excess weather or lee helm
1. loose rigging, below correct tensions
2. sheeting the mainsail too close or 'above' the centerline towards the weather side
3. For pointing in 10-15kts. the aft end of second from the top batten should be somewhat parallel to the boats centerline.
4. A dacron mainsail with 'boltrope' if not correctly raised and then additionally tensioned by the halyard tension will be very full draft, draft aft and with the leech 'cupped up' toward windward = weather helm and dragging rudder - see below.
5. a too loose headstay, one that is sagging off to leeward will cause the boat to 'skid' to leeward and will prevent 'pointing'.
6. get and apply a full set of tell tales for your sails - behind the luff, at mid-cord, and at the leeches .... its IMPOSSIBLE to have good trim and sail shape without them.

How raise a 'boltroped' dacron mainsail: How to properly RAISE a woven dacron mainsail - SailboatOwners.com

How to adjust for correct headstay tension: www.ftp.tognews.com/GoogleFiles/Matching Luff Hollow.pdf
 
#19 ·
Does that mean you are new to sailing? back to basics. the beam reach is the fastest point of sail. when you sheet in and turn upwind to sail close hauled you will loose some speed and the closer you get to the point when the jib starts to luff on the leading edge the slower the boat will be. many beginners have a hard time finding the small difference between pointing properly and pinching to high into the wind
 
#20 ·
Really good point from OverBored about pinching -- sailing very high offers diminishing returns, and pinching can actually lose you more in leeway than it gains you in tack angle. That's why I suggest you bring along a compass, or use the compass feature on your GPS unit. You need to determine whether the problem lies with your heading (which direction the bow is pointed) or with your course (which way the boat is moving). Deficiencies in heading are likely attributable to sail condition, sail trim, mast rake, or rig tuning. If your heading is okay but your course is lousy, that's probably down to currents, appendages (keel & rudder), heel angle, or misunderstanding of wind forces. But never fear -- all of these issues can be fixed.

Perhaps the best way to fix your issues fast is to ask an experienced small-boat sailor out with you. Second best is to sail alongside another boat, trying to match their heading and sail trim. If they are pointing higher than you, you have a heading problem. If you are pointing at the same angle but your boat is sliding sideways relative to theirs, you have a course problem. Or a Daysailer.;) (Fabulous little boats, BTW, one of my all-time favorites. But ja, they do slide.)
 
#21 ·
I was unable to get to the lake in order to produce photos or attempt suggested methods. Hopefully i will soon. But for now, I do feel part of issue is my main sail, it quite baggy, with perhaps 20 inches of give at the sail foot, if that makes since. Another maybe lately, if there is wind, it's 7 - 15knts creating almost one foot waves or it's very lite around 5knt breeze. So, my guess for now is the baggy older sail, the previous conditions and my current experience. Again, thanks so much for the advice and assistance. I will continue to improve on this matter and save my coins to eventually purchase new main sail.
 
#23 ·
But for now, I do feel part of issue is my main sail, it quite baggy, with perhaps 20 inches of give at the sail foot, if that makes since.
Yeah! That can be a deal breaker right there. W/o the ability to flatten out the main, performace is lost. Great for running before the wind, though. :rolleyes:
 
#22 ·
older distant images of sail and boat in question.

These are older images of boat taken month ago, which may provide an idea of the issue of unable to sail any closer into true wind than I should with this DS 2. Once I return to lake, I'll post more detail of rig.
 

Attachments

#25 ·
Looks to me that the forestay is loose which makes the sail fuller, so it won't point as high. It also seems very far out if you are beating. Can you get the luff of the main tighter - it looks full hoist but will the tack come down? The downslope of the boom suggests a tight leech so no twist. If in the photo you are beating that close to land, you will in effect be largely sheltered from the wind, so you won't be able to produce much boat speed which would increase the apparent wind and move it ahead enabling you to point higher.
 
#26 ·
Looking at that picture.. are you 'as close to the breeze as you can get'?

Your jib is far from fully sheeted in if that's the case. The trim looks set properly for a close reach situation...
 
#27 ·
You can't get an accurate sense of how well the boat is sailing when you are that close to land and trees and hills. I don't know how big your lake is, but I don't see anywhere within the camera frame where you can expect reasonably unobstructed winds. In terrain like that, the wind doesn't come from one direction, as it does on a big bay or along the coast. It swirls back and forth. When it passes a high hill, it is turned, and when it passes a stand of trees, it is turned again, and when it crosses from land to water, it is turned again. When the wind gusts or lulls, the direction of the apparent wind changes again, and to a very pronounced extent. Skilled, experienced sailors would find it extremely frustrating to sail in that venue. I don't think there's any way of knowing whether you are using good sail trimming and helmsmanship techniques, when you are sailing in such a difficult environment. If you can take the boat someplace where you can sail it in relatively clear, directionally stable air, your sail trimming and helmsmanship will improve quickly. After you develop some skill at sail trim and helmsmanship, you'll find the conditions in the photo challenging, and you'll derive satisfaction in being able to cope with them.

To be clear, I'm not saying you can't sail there. I'm suggesting that you develop your basic skills in a less challenging, more predictable venue, before you try sailing in such a difficult venue. I think you'll put your current frustration behind you quickly.
 
#29 · (Edited)
From the pic you have a drastic mainsail SHAPE issue, not a 'trim' issue.

From the pic, your mainsail isnt correctly raised - that why its 'baggy' ... aft section of the boom is drooping into the cockpit and the angle that the boom makes with the mast is probably MUCH greater than 88-90 deg. This will cause undue 'weather helm' .. and dragging the rudder sideways through the water which enhances 'skid'.
On a boat with a 'triangular rope' traveller, you simply cannot overtension the mainsheet OR the leech will 'significantly hook up to weather' and artificially cause a mainsail 'power-up' by increasing the overall relative amount of draft ... this is a VERY slow setting for mainsail shape but will allow increased pointing ability at very slow boat speed - BUT you need an almost neutral helm pressure to accomplish this 'power pinching' and that isnt a technique for a boat that apparently is having problems in going to weather.
Consult the article I posted earlier about 'how to correctly raise a dacron mainsail' as form the pic I suggest that your PRINCIPAL problem is that the mainsail is not correctly 'raised' and does not have 'correct' tension along the luff. Probably 95% of ALL sailors simply 'raise' a dacron mainsail and never additionally stretch out that luff rope and then complain of poor pointing, aggressive heeling and 'slow' / 'cranky' boat.

The mast is also raked a bit .... so you may have TWO issues that cause weather helm (and skidding to leeward) when beating. Where the position of where maximum draft is located (w/r to fore/aft) in the mainsail (controlled by 'halyard tension' &/or cunnningham tension) will more determine 'helm pressure' than mast rake .... but you really have to 'optimize' both the sail 'shape' AND the mast rake to get to get the boat to 'maximum'. Go the how to raise a dacron mainsail article and do the on-water 'testing' and set up to get correct sail SHAPE via correct halyard tension that results in 'very slight' weather helm, etc. .... FIRST.

Again, you really have to have an almost 'neutral' or helm that has only slight 'helm pressure' or so-called 'weather helm' to make a CB boat like this to go to weather. A CB boat like this shape will need about ~15-20° of heel angle to get the side of the hull immersed sufficiently to resist a skid to leeward .... the CB is really too small when the boat is 'flat' (little to no heel) in the water.

I cant see from the pic whether your forestay is correctly tensioned ... got a pic from the other / up-wind side when the boat is pointing in a bit more wind?

Also, for such 'light' wind conditions you need FLAT (low amount of draft) sails to prevent invisible separation stalls on the leeward side of the sails .... outhaul needs significant tensioning.
Generalized mainsail amount of draft:
0-6kts. FLAT / little draft
6-10kts. moderate draft
10-15kts. full draft when in waves , less draft if small waves
15-18kts moderate draft
18+kts. FLAT / little draft

:)
 
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