Wing on Wing - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Learning to Sail
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree7Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 03-22-2012
jackdale's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 8,752
Thanks: 25
Thanked 32 Times in 29 Posts
Rep Power: 6
jackdale will become famous soon enough
Re: Wing on Wing

To the OP (noticed your avatar)

Note that in both cases of the gennaker that the main is up. Getting a gennaker down in a blow without the main is dangerous. The main can blanket the gennaker and depower it so that it can be doused or dropped under control.
Faster likes this.
__________________
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 03-22-2012
jackdale's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 8,752
Thanks: 25
Thanked 32 Times in 29 Posts
Rep Power: 6
jackdale will become famous soon enough
Re: Wing on Wing

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Why not use (a non-rigid) boom vang as a preventer? Not only does it prevent a jibe, it can continue to function as a boom vang on the rail.
Your toe rail may not survive the gybe. Nor might your vang.

Use the right equipment for the right purposes.
__________________
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 03-22-2012
jackdale's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 8,752
Thanks: 25
Thanked 32 Times in 29 Posts
Rep Power: 6
jackdale will become famous soon enough
Re: Wing on Wing

Agree with Faster

Wing on wing is also my least favourite point of sail of sail. I teach it because it can be necessary. I had to go DDW to go between a reef and Antigua. Sometimes you need to go DDW in a channel.

Broad reach and and gybe is safer and much more relaxing. It can also be faster especially with a asymmetrical.
__________________
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 03-22-2012
pdqaltair's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Posts: 2,105
Thanks: 1
Thanked 24 Times in 24 Posts
Rep Power: 6
pdqaltair is on a distinguished road
Re: Wing on Wing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Amen....

Sailing wing-on-wing sans pole usually works best by sailing slightly by-the-lee.. this tends to direct the AW in a direction that tends to hold the jib out.

Problem is, of course, that you're almost always on the verge of an accidental gybe.. so there's no relaxing on that score.
True...

... Unless you've got a lot of beam.

Sail Delmarva: A Simple Jib Lead Adjustment for Cruising Down Wind

And then it's cake (we rigged an adjustable lead later, though the basic position is the same).

--------------

Yes, a preventer is an awfully good idea. For us, the spinnaker sheet works when wing-and-wing. When the chutes is up, we use a separate line to the midships cleat.

Sail Delmarva: The Simplest of Preventers
__________________
(when asked how he reached the starting holds on a difficult rock climbing problem that clearly favored taller climbers - he was perhaps 5'5")

"Well, I just climb up to them."

by Joe Brown, English rock climber




To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 03-22-2012
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: VA
Posts: 54
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 4
ccher is on a distinguished road
Re: Wing on Wing

On the Chesapeake where I do a lot of sailing the wind often is either northerly or southerly so going up or down the Bay is either a beat or near DDW. I don't have a gennaker or spin but invested in a whisker pole a 2 or 3 years ago and use it a lot; it really helps. I have the main slightly to leeward to lessen the accidental gybe chances (use a boom brake also) and the pole keeps the genoa which is slightly winward from backing....a true light air sail in my future??? Hope so.
__________________
Harry
S/V GRACE
Cranes Creek, VA
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 03-22-2012
jameswilson29's Avatar
Senior Smart Aleck
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 2,022
Thanks: 26
Thanked 62 Times in 57 Posts
Rep Power: 5
jameswilson29 is on a distinguished road
Re: Wing on Wing

While I respect Jackdale and Faster's opinions, in this case I disagree with their objections to the use of a boom vang as a preventer. This use for smaller boats is mentioned on the UK-Halsey sailmaker's Encyclopedia of Sails website page for boom vangs: SKIPPERS TIPS ON USING BOOM VANG - UK-Halsey Sails

I have done it a number of times with no problem. If you secure the boom vang to the rail and tighthen the main sheet and the boom vang the boom will not be going anywhere - it cannot generate any power to pull the stanchion or rail fitting. The boom will be held in place by two forces down from either side. The power from a jibe is generated by the speed of the movement of the boom, not the power of the wind on the sail from a stationary boom. If the wind moves forward of the leeward side of the mainsail, the boat will simply spin into the wind; there is no particular movement of the boom, particularly if you have also positioned the traveller to leeward, as it should be.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 03-22-2012
BubbleheadMd's Avatar
Chastened
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Edgewater/Annapolis
Posts: 2,801
Thanks: 0
Thanked 49 Times in 46 Posts
Rep Power: 5
BubbleheadMd will become famous soon enough
Send a message via Yahoo to BubbleheadMd
Re: Wing on Wing

Jackdale is a sailing instructor, so he know of what he speaks.

However... I think some of these guys are making WnW sound scarier than it is. No, you don't need a whisker pole but it sure makes it easier. You can use a spinnaker pole too, it's just not adjustable.

Do it, just do it in lighter air. Don't do it in 20 kts of breeze. A gybe in air like that could clobber somebody or blow your mainsheet block apart (don't ask how I know )

It's not hard, it just requires that you pay attention. WnW is not necessarily the time to check your text messages, or get into a lengthy conversation with crew.

You need to post some pictures. I miss my little Coronado.
__________________
S/V Old Shoes
1973 Pearson 30 #255
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 03-22-2012
jackdale's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 8,752
Thanks: 25
Thanked 32 Times in 29 Posts
Rep Power: 6
jackdale will become famous soon enough
Re: Wing on Wing

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleheadMd View Post
Jackdale is a sailing instructor, so he know of what he speaks.


Quote:

However... I think some of these guys are making WnW sound scarier than it is. No, you don't need a whisker pole but it sure makes it easier. You can use a spinnaker pole too, it's just not adjustable.
In the shot that I posted it is a spin pole that we are using. Normally the downhaul and topping lift are on the pole ends as it is a dip pole gybe set up. I used a couple of bales that are mid-pole.

Quote:

Do it, just do it in lighter air. Don't do it in 20 kts of breeze. A gybe in air like that could clobber somebody or blow your mainsheet block apart (don't ask how I know )

It's not hard, it just requires that you pay attention. WnW is not necessarily the time to check your text messages, or get into a lengthy conversation with crew.
I have a pretty good feel for the wind.

I use the Windex rather than the wind instruments to visualize the wind. A shroud mounted tell tale also works well.

Looking up at a Windex a lot can be uncomfortable.
__________________
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 03-22-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 1,833
Thanks: 4
Thanked 21 Times in 19 Posts
Rep Power: 10
nolatom will become famous soon enough
Re: Wing on Wing

Yeah, echo the "it takes concentration" part. You're always, by definition, pretty close to being by the lee and hence close to an accidental jibe.

So it's not really for beginners or take-it-easy cruisers. Broad reaching, on the other hand, is....
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 03-22-2012
Faster's Avatar
Just another Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New Westminster, BC
Posts: 14,604
Thanks: 67
Thanked 178 Times in 174 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about
Re: Wing on Wing

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
While I respect Jackdale and Faster's opinions, in this case I disagree with their objections to the use of a boom vang as a preventer......
In most cases I do think that using the vang will not cause a problem.. as long as it's an easily moved connection and the rail or attachment point is sufficiently strong. Rigging a preventer (however it's done) can often reduce slatting and shock loading things even on a light day with leftover waves for example.. but I've found that using a vang-like arrangement to the rail doesn't have a good enough angle to truly keep the boom from moving around..(unlike a loaded sail in a breeze downwind) and the sail will continue to slat in the waves despite the 'preventer'. Taking a line from the boom end all the way forward is a much more effective restraint in that regard. So a real 'preventer' setup is just going to be better, and you'll always have a proper vang in play.

Another concern is that human nature being what it is, how often does one reattach the vang to the deck/mast before gybing and resetting the 'preventer' on the other gybe? In heavy air that would be well advised.

btw I do not mean to make W-on-W sound 'scary'.. generally it isn't until it's windy enough to make any DDW an interesting proposition, it's the nuisance of the collapsing jib and the need to be on your toes at all moments to avoid a unintended gybe, esp when using no pole. And when it blows up to say 20+ it's way less scary than a kite...
__________________
Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wing on wing zfactor Learning to Sail 50 06-02-2014 08:17 PM
What is a wing sail and why aren't they many of them? jbarros General Discussion (sailing related) 12 11-25-2009 11:36 AM
Wing on Wing, disconnecting the Whisker pole L124C Seamanship & Navigation 15 10-25-2009 02:05 AM
Wing & wing using staysail? Ilenart General Discussion (sailing related) 9 08-20-2008 01:27 PM
Wing to Wing How? 1970Columbia34 Learning to Sail 26 05-25-2007 07:38 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:22 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.