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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Living Aboard
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  #101  
Old 04-10-2007
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Pmoyer...thanks for the additional legal education...interesting!

Larry and Letty...last time I was in boot key harbor (4-5 years ago) there were a bunch of derelicts and people not using holding tanks and the place was a sewer. Apparently the town has decided to regulate things and force the freeloaders to obey the law and pay for what they use. There are always some who ruin things for the rest of us.
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  #102  
Old 04-10-2007
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Phil-
"If you're about to drop the hook, how do you know if it's "permitted" or not? I'm not aware of the marine equivalent of the "Private property - No tresspassing" sign. " Often there's no way unless you know what the laws are in that area, and what the history is. In NY Harbor, there's nothing to tell you that all the bottomland "inside of the bulkhead line" is private property. You might guess that you can't just anchor between two huge piers on Manhattan--but there's no way to tell until someone comes along and throws you out, unless you know the local regs.
Crown charters date back to when England and Spain "took possession" of the US lands, so knowing which crown a state belonged to may also give you hints--but it still won't tell you who got the land patents, the actual charters. You'll need local knowledge, and that's why the man with the badge can usually tell you anything he pleases--you've got no way to disprove it, even if he knows he's wrong.

Tom-
There are states where you don't need a brain bucket, either. And I'm all for that, if they'd only pass a matching law that says in the event of injury or death, no one else has to pay a cent toward any head damages or death it causes. AFAIK no states require boots and leathers (or the synthetics) and lots of bikes ride in sneakers and shorts. Doesn't mean that's safe, either.
Slipping in between cars when you know you'll be riding unseen in blind spots, unexpected, and unprotected while those same drivers are just as impatient as you are? Sorry, that's just foolish. Air cooled bikes DO NOT need massive airflow to operate at idle, you can't sell me on that one. If your bike can't idle without cooking off--it's just bad engineering. Like leaky old British vertical split gear cases.
What you call lane splitting, the 2007 California DMV Motorcyclist's Handbook http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl655/dl665mcycle.pdf calls "Lane Sharing" and on page 15 says "Lane Sharing:
Cars and motorcycles each need a full lane to operate safely. Lane sharing is not safe.
Riding between rows of stopped or moving cars in the same lane can leave you vulnerable. A car could turn suddenly or change lanes, a door could open, or a hand could come out of a window. Discourage lane sharing by others. "
So it may be legal--but it is also defined as unsafe operation.

I guess you're so upset that you forgot to answer: It's OK if we all come anchor in your living room, park in your yard, use your bike whenever we find it with no one around, right? Just cause it's there, we can use it? Like dropping an anchor anyplace else?

Last edited by hellosailor; 04-10-2007 at 11:08 AM.
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  #103  
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All I'm going to say further

First of all this forum is about sailing, not motorcycles. Perhaps the use of an analogy is beyond some of you, I donít know.

Iím NOT advocating dropping the hook 12 feet from someoneís house and demanding to use their bathroom and tossing trash on their lawn. Iím NOT advocating taking my dink and tying it up to their dock. You arenít reading what I wrote, obviously. I live in a lake community with a private beach and private docks, and we are constantly explaining to idiots why they canít use our port-a-pottie, our picnic tables, and our beach - itís private property. We can do nothing about them rafting 6 boats in our cove and behaving boorishly, peeing over the side and playing loud, crappy music all day and into the night.

So please donít tell me what you THINK I am saying Mr. Hello Sailor. I am a responsible person who respects the rights of others. Your sarcasm about parking in front of my house COMPLETELY misunderstands and misinterprets everything I wrote. If youíd go back and reread it maybe youíll understand better.

I expected better from this forum, I expected reasonable discussion with thoughtful, thought-through answers. Iíd like to think thatís still the case, and based on some of the responses it seems to be. Iím not getting into flame wars with people, and I will not get into a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
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  #104  
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OK...calm down everyone...
Tom...I understood your comments on ANCHORING and the analogy...and don't believe you are irresponsible in how you conduct yourself on the water.

I think we can leave the lane sharing issue to the Harley Davidson forum.
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  #105  
Old 04-10-2007
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I think part of the real problem with law enforcement on the water is that it is so fragmented, and many times, one enforcement group will slough off the hard work to another, saying, "It's not our jurisdiction, so it's not our responsibility."

I've seen similar things like that happen when I lived in Missouri, as the city didn't want to deal with certain things they thought should be the county's responsibility, and the county thought it should be the city's job... so it ended up slipping through the cracks.

I think that a lot of the anchoring and mooring issues may have similar problems. The land-based authorities say it is the water-based authorities responsibilty... or the reverse... which seems to be the case in many parts of Florida. The land owners have gotten legislation passed that makes it very difficult for in-transit boaters. However, IIRC, the courts down there recently ruled that the local governments do not have jurisdiction over boats in-transit. However, they do have jurisdiction over semi-permanently anchored/moored boats in-residence.

However, it becomes the in-transit boat owner's problem, because the local authorities don't really care whether you're a transient or not... if they feel they have authority over you, nothing you can say or do is going to change what happens on the water.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
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  #106  
Old 04-11-2007
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Having recently been in the Miami area and through other areas in South East Florida I have come to the conclusion that this part of Florida is not interested in tourists any more and that their focus is now on homeowners. In Miami there are at least 10,000 new condo residences currently under construction, which will bring in 100s of millions in taxes to city coffers. So that they are not interested in transient boater rights is really of no surprise. Florida passed legislation supposedly making it illegal for communities to pass laws effecting the anchoring of transient boaters. But it's a joke as communities like Miami Beach continue to flaunt the law and it's a sad state of affairs that any legislative body is allowed , with impunity, to pass laws that are clearly illegal. But Florida does not care and it's just very unfortunate that there is no alternative.
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  #107  
Old 04-18-2007
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I think you have all been reading too much Capt. Joshua Slocum or Herman Mellville stuff........

Serriously this isn't about being able to "live aboard" it's about money...........

Do you think that guy with the mansion on the hill and the Swan 44 docked out front gives a hoot if you ever find a place to "live aboard"

I happen to live in Maritime Canada, and although we do have (some) "rules" like anywhere else, this is the most boater friendly place in North America...... trouble is the summer is only 3 months long, the rivers freeze and believe it or not so do some of the most desirable salt water bays and coves on the Nova Scotia coastline........

Also the Province of Ontario got savvy about "live boards" Here you had guys in the Toronto area living virtually "tax free" on $300,000 boats in marinas, just outside of condos costing the same money and paying $3,000 a year in taxes.........

Musn't have that now must we ?

If you want the freedom of living aboard, you'll need a boat, some form of income, give up everything (including the wife) that won't fit on your boat and head for the South seas or the Meditereanian, they say Greece is cheap......
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  #108  
Old 04-18-2007
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Mooring Balls - Boot Key Marathon

I did not know where to post this so here goes; the City of Marathon has taken over Boot Key Harbor and kicked out a lot of the boats moored there. They have put in an addition 166 mooring balls which are only available (they say) for live a boards. We had moved our boat from the mooring field into a narror area along the edge of the Harbor; when we were not there, they decided we were in the field (we were not) were swinging and hitting other boats (we were not) and arbitrarily moved us onto a mooring ball for which we are now being charged rent; and told if we do not pay up and move they will get the sheriff involved. The dockmaster stated it is MANDATED BY FL LAW that mooring balls can only be used by live a boards. Does anyone know of such a law on the books? We think they are just harrassing us but guess there is little we can do about it.
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  #109  
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I don't think they have the legal right to move your boat onto a mooring without your permission. I don't know florida law, and you probably need to talk to a lawyer.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

óCpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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  #110  
Old 04-18-2007
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L & L the dockmaster is out to lunch re; the use of mooring balls. Vero Beach Municipal makes a pile of money from transients.
As far as boarding your boat without permission that's called piracy and in some areas is punishable by death, although probably not in Florida, but you never know.
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