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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Living Aboard
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  #131  
Old 07-18-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfesq
What would you do if you had the property overlooking the wreck?


Isn't this why we can get plans for Potato cannons??
And have our freedom of speach with a bang?
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  #132  
Old 07-18-2007
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Originally Posted by Boasun


Isn't this why we can get plans for Potato cannons??
And have our freedom of speach with a bang?
Or waterballoon slingshots... if you want the stealth approach... no loud noise to warn them of the incoming fire...
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  #133  
Old 07-19-2007
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I have been concerned about people appropriating the bottom for private use in coastal harbors.

Essentially what you observe is that local jurisdictions have established regulations which govern and control the water / harbor adjacent to their land based jurisdiction. The effect of this is that they sell the right to use a mooring on a seasonal basis, or assign large areas to commercial interests to rent them to others.

What seems to be the case is that local residents not only get first dibs at a mooring, but they get a preferred rate in many cases... a perk for being a tax paying resident. Fine an dandy for those who live in that jurisdiction, but for the land locked they are SOL as far a preferred "rates" or getting pushed up the "waiting list".

Boats need some place to "park" and this is aside from the transients who want to anchor for a brief stay. Where to put all the boats? Many obviously choose the marinas with all their attendant conveniences... showers, pools, car parks, tennis, clubs, electricity, water and bars of course.

Others prefer to be moored off. And the choices for a mooring are now few and far between because their are so many boats that the "market" has stepped up to deal with this.

The rental costs for a typical mooring does not reflect the actual cost. I check Sag Harbor NY recently. Sag Harbor Village

and you can see how bigger boats are charged more for the same size mooring, local residents pay less and have preference.

A mooring is not without cost... the mushroom, the chain, shackles, splices, float and the painter. and some one has to set it and probable maintain it... So there are maintenance costs.

A mooring rig can probably last 5 years and so it can generate income of up to 10- $15,000 in that period. Do you see any market forces as work here? They appear to be cash cows to me.

Imagine have 100 moorings in some harbor like Coecles, or Dering, or Great Salt Pond? I'd say that is a damn good return on investment. And if you go the transient root, you can really cash out at 30-$50 per night.

While I don't expect moorings to be free, there proliferation has turned many general anchorages into paid parking lots and the only available "free" anchor locations are usually way way out in less protected waters, or require on to be a good rower or have a reliable OB for their dink.

I am not certain how these jurisdiction were able to claim the bottom for economic purposes, but they did.

But what if they did nothing? What would happen? Chaos. So they establish mooring regulations and a grid usually and then offer the spots, and the they get into the mooring business and begin policing the harbor and dolling out fines for breaking their "laws". They either sub contract their mooring operations or establish a position of Harbor Master who might do it. They also provide lots of the bottom to yacht clubs and marinas who can offer their members and customers a mooring (for a fee of course).

This entire process is the result of economic success... lots of boats and not enough place to put them. There is a lot of cashing out going on here.

Then you have the property owners whose properties front on the water. They want control of their view in many cases and get it from the jurisdiction. It is not uncommon to see regs prohibiting anchoring within say 500 feet of the shore MHW.

BI is an interesting situation. The Great Salt Pond is rather vast and a great go to destination for boaters. The island also has a rather small population... aside from the seasonal visitors.. so there is effectively lots of parking space for the visitors. Sag Harbor is exactly the opposite - little parking space and lots of locals with boats and not so locals who keep or want to keep their boats seasonally moored there.

Weekends in season in the USA see the musical chair thing where boaters leave their seasonal mooring and head off to anchor or pick up a mooring at some cruising destination. The seasonal mooring is then often rented to a transient since they are not there. Who gets the revenue? Not the seasonal renter. He doesn't get a cut or a credit. The mooring operators make some extra cash for that space... mooring, slip or whatever. of they know you are off for X days... they will rent your space to someone else... and prohibit you for letting some friend use your mooring or space in your absence.

And most prohibit rafting.. even for a little lunch visit in mild weather. It's a definite NO-NO.

In fact America has become the land of NO-NO.

jef
sv shiva
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  #134  
Old 07-19-2007
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Jef-
"I am not certain how these jurisdiction were able to claim the bottom for economic purposes, but they did. "
Ah, especially on the east end of LI? They don't CLAIM the bottom rights, they BOUGHT THEM during the war bond fundraisers. Or, they trace them back further. Gardner's Island? Even the US Government has to give the family special treatment, their "rights" go directly back to a Crown Patent or land grant. As do many "rights" on Long Island.

It may not seem fair--but they didn't steal those bottom lands, they got 'em legal and fair and proper, in a time when there were no yachts or yachtsmen to be considered.

Are mooring fields a racket? Sure, but that's part of why the residents may be paying four or five million to buy a tear-down property in the village, and fighting to get it. The residents HAVE PAID for those bargains on local moorings. Ain't fair to transients, but unless you are in a commune, that's the way property rights go.

And I'm afraid I readily understand and agree with regulations against raft-ups on moorings. When you are assigned to a mooring, someone checks the capacity of hte mooring against the weight/size of the boat. One boat. Now your buddies want to raft up...who's going to recheck that the mooring is going to hold? The dinghy driver? The parking lot attendant? Too many problems could come out of that, what happens if the mooring breaks loose in a storm two days later, and someone sues claiming the mooring was pulled out or damaged by the excess laod of the raft up?

Welcome to America. Horribly imperfect, but meanwhile it's the best we've got. My biggest complaint about those exclusive villages, is that I'm too poor to buy one. (And evict ALL the other residents, so I can have it all for myself, nice and clean and quiet.)
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  #135  
Old 07-21-2007
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King . . . of all that I see!!

Wow, I can't believe that I read the whole thread.

I can't help but focus on the "I own the view" philosophy. When one elects to buy property, one is also accepting the uncontrolled environment adjacent to it. If someone were to anchor their boat off your front lawn/beach for 60 days, it would not be too much different if they had decided to park their big RV right next door. (If you've ever watched Nat'l Lampoon's Christmas Vacation - now there's an example!!)

There are time tested ways to deal with a neighbor who is legally affecting your "area of influence." But it's a little outragious to say, "I bought this land, and therefore shall control all that I can see from it." I'd have to respond by saying, "buyer beware." In truth, the land owner controls the body of water next him no more than he controls his neigbors' land next to him nor the sky above.

Go try buying a country home and tell the farmer next door he can't raise a barn because it obstructs your "view" of the western sky. It's sounds very pompous.

... now, lewd and vulgar conduct, disturbing the peace, excess noise. That is a different subject all together. That is a breach of the community's laws, and should be pursued as such. The "my land - my view" argument is a red herring.

-Shack
It's kind of tough to live on this planet and avoid human interaction. (Unless you are Big Foot or Elvis.)
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  #136  
Old 07-21-2007
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Ever heard of zoning ordinances?

Ever heard of riparian rights. Riparian rights state that I own the bottom lands to the middle of the lake out from my waterfront property. Standard fare on inland lakes. You can anchor temporarily but not permanently.

Many cities have ordinances regarding the parking of motor homes or trailers in the front yard. In my previous city you were allowed 2 days per month.
In the city I'm in now, they are going to ban any motor home parking that blocks the view to the water of other residences. Privacy fences that block the water view are banned but otherwise allowed.

Remember the golden rule, he who has the gold sets the rules. Waterfront property is more and more valuable and the people with money are controlling it. They don't want trailer trash anchored out front. It's very difficult to legislate what is trash & what isn't so everybody gets rousted. Call it 'fairness' to all!

In Michigan, roads that end at the water were meant for access to the water. Those road ends became party places and created nuisances for adjoining property owners. As the situation worsened, the state has taken up a measure the will restrict road ends to ingress and egress only. Anything more is loitering. No sunbathing, no picnics no nothing. A few bad apples have spoiled the bunch.

We have met the enemy and it is us!
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  #137  
Old 07-22-2007
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Cool Us vs Them

Quote:
Originally Posted by xort View Post
Ever heard of zoning ordinances? ... Those road ends became party places and created nuisances for adjoining property owners.
X,
RTFP, my friend. "... now, lewd and vulgar conduct, disturbing the peace, excess noise. That is a different subject all together. That is a breach of the community's laws, and should be pursued as such."

Now that you agree on the red herring of "personal ownership"; I say you are right on the money with regard to the subject of local ordinances and the context of communal intrest. Strength in numbers tends to hold the power. It doesn't matter what the resource is; money (gold) or people. He who gets there "the firstest with the mostest" is usually the winner. A community or individual can observe an acitivuty, find it displeasurable, and then impose their will if they have the resources to pull it off (money, votes, or both). No argument there.

I find this issues has less to do with right vs. wrong than it does with simple material possession (and to a lesser extent a natural level of personal greed - of which I claim no innocence). When more than one person covets that "one thing", someone will loose. Right & wrong is a relative concept, and trivial at that point.

If someone still wants to keep the "right vs. wrong" thing alive, that's ok, but it's not enough to stand on principle alone. For example: In 1914, Belgium was "right." .. good for them. Standing on princple alone will only ensure one a pleasant epitaph, or at least a good bar story to grouse about with other loser drunk who think you care about their problems, too.

Last edited by Shack; 07-22-2007 at 02:26 AM.
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  #138  
Old 07-22-2007
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Supply and demand at work again. That is how the world works. Unfortunately, what used to be quaint, such as liveaboards at anchor in many of the resort towns around the USA, became a problem of over population and its societal averages. For many years nobody much cared if a few liveaboards anchored in the area as they were part of the local charm. Then is became a lot of liveaboards, then a lot of weekend liveaboards, then a lot of parties, then a lot of lewd behavior, and the list continues. Local governments had to react with ordinances to control the spread of the problem both for the local residences affected ( and those were not just the people with waterfront property) and to keep their communities a tousist destination ( read that as people on vacation with money to spend, not usually boats, that want to look at the water and dream) and keep the local economy going.

I sit here looking out my front window with a mile of lake visible north and south. One boat, and it is a family on a pontoon anchored a 100 yards in front of my house, is all that I see on the lake at the moment. This family seems to always fish anchored in this same spot. The fishing is either great or they have a fondness for the spot. Nice people, we always wave to them and they to us, and they are part of our lake experience and have been for a few years. NO PROBLEM!

Now, there are a couple of places on the lake with shallow sandy bottoms a long way out, in front of private property, that are gathering places for partiers and families. Those spots have been active for 30 years that I am aware of. Again, for the most part nice people enjoying the lake, conduct within reason, and NO PROBLEM! One gentleman thought that when he built his beautiful new home on a undeveloped lot that they would go somewhere else. He got an education and they are part of his lake experience now. Nothing wrong with people on a sandbar 2-300 yards off your property having a good time. If they get out of hand and obnoxious then you call the sheriffs patrol, they enforce some drinking laws, and the problem is solved. Does not happen very often and the lake is usually quiet. That is the nice part of living in less populated parts of the world.

The other side of the story. I grew up on lakes in southern Michigan, where the population is, and there were problems. The weekends became party time for idiots anchoring 100 feet off your beach. Loud, obnoxious, and a problem. The lake was their potty and it was a cold weekend when **** ( don't read that as trash) did not wash up on your beach. Whether you were a property owner or just utilizing the lake, it was a problem. It still is. Those type of idiots are the ones that caused the laws to be written and hopefully enforced. Money had nothing to do with the equation, idiots appear in all kinds of boats, some very expensive.
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  #139  
Old 07-23-2007
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Exclamation Get'em

I see a slight consensus here. Those on land have problems with those who are asshulls on boats. Boaters in general have a problem with those who are asshulls on boats. Is it possible that more proactivity on this mutual target could help reduce the apparent need for "sweeping reforms?"

If you see an asshull in boat, report the SOB to the Coast Guard or DNR. He's the one taking your freedoms away. Don't just watch the fool; shaking one's head in disgust, "tsk tsk", and motor on by. ("Don't look at them, Bob, they're uncouth and beneath us.")

One should tell everyone who the rat bastard is that is making a poor name for boaters. The disadvantage of being a small boating community can be turned on its ear. Many boating communities are small enough that it promotes name recognition. It's not that easy to hide in such communities. Fewer asshulls means less pressure from law makers.

To what extent can we police our own? Do we care enough? It ironic that we're obligated to help another boater or vessel in distress, but can we feel the same sense of obligation when we're all in distress? It's just as easy to avoid the 800 pound gorilla in the room as it is to turn off CH16.
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  #140  
Old 07-23-2007
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nice idea in theory but,

I watched a guy in a sea ray jet boat hunting in the bay in front of my house. He was way closer than the hunting law allows. He shot at some geese and hit a neighbors window!
I called the local police. The cop showed up and asked what do you expect me to do, I don't have boat. I told him (he should have known) the coast guard station was 300 yards away. He left. I called the coasties and told them what's up. Meanwhile the hunter is still hanging around with his shotgun. Coasties said they were looking into it. An hour later, the hunter finally left and the coasties never sent their boat out of the station. By then the hunter was within 200 yards of the station.

Good luck getting any law agency to get a boater to turn down his stereo or remove his underwear from the lifelines.
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