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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Living Aboard
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  #11  
Old 12-13-2006
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Hey Surf...I can't be everywhere! If you find spam that needs deleting...just click on the triangle in the top corner of the post to report it. We get thousands of objectionable post clicks every day...mostly from fight club!
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  #12  
Old 12-13-2006
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Let's see now...the guy on the hill pays more taxes, contributes to the community more (probably) so obviously what he wants is more important....right? We have to keep the low-lifes in the ghettos and slums after all, not out there with "decent" folks.....right? And we certainly can't have people out there not conforming to our idea of society, isn't that why they have covenants and such in housing communities, no individuals allowed,......right?

Freedom doesn't mean no rules, but neither does it mean putting people in boxes either. There will always be those who choose not to act in a responsible manner, and they will always end up "spoiling somebody's view, somewhere". But, as with so much in this country anymore, the laws and regulations are designed not for those who break them, but those who heed them. So, rather than do something about those who abuse their privileges, we punish the many, as that is a much easier way to deal with the situation.
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Ontario 32 - Aria

Free, is the heart, that lives not, in fear.
Full, is the spirit, that thinks not, of falling.
True, is the soul, that hesitates not, to give.
Alive, is the one, that believes, in love.
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  #13  
Old 12-13-2006
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Okay, so that would be the point of view from the guy who is planning on mucking up your cove....forever.
What we need to protect are the people who are passing through.
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  #14  
Old 12-13-2006
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Well, you don't do that by throwing out the baby with the bathwater. As with much in this country, it's more a matter of enforcing exisiting laws and regulations, than it is making new, more restrictive ones.

Also, unless it was included in the purchase of the property, it isn't the guy on the hill's cove in the first place. As the SSCA says....leave a clean wake. That goes for people on land, as well as those in boats.
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Ontario 32 - Aria

Free, is the heart, that lives not, in fear.
Full, is the spirit, that thinks not, of falling.
True, is the soul, that hesitates not, to give.
Alive, is the one, that believes, in love.
JCP


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  #15  
Old 12-13-2006
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John..in principle I am with you...but the reality is that there are a lot of low-life derelicts out there hanging on anchors. They don't pump out. The smoke coming from their boats ain't all diesel and it ain't tabaccy either. The boats can no longer move under their own power and the rest of us need to lock everything when we pull into an anchorage and leave the boat.
Somehow...that does not seem to me to be what the intent of "anchoring rights" is...but it probably could be handled with other laws if they were enforced. But it is easy for towns just to use a cannon instead of a fly swatter and not worry about it. Thus we all get caught in the explosion and need to fight back.
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  #16  
Old 12-14-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camaraderie
...in principle I am with you...
That's really the crux of the matter. Rather than deal with the principles involved, too many of these instances are about somebody being offended. And usually, it's someone, or entity, with money.

Responsible boaters are not going to be the ones that have derelict boats anchored out. Yet, they are the ones who are really affected by such "cannon" tactics. The derelicts will find another place, until that one is put off limits, and then move again. Meanwhile, more and more areas are put off limits for the responsible boaters.

Life may not be fair, but every erosion of personal freedom that is lost, will never be regained.
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Ontario 32 - Aria

Free, is the heart, that lives not, in fear.
Full, is the spirit, that thinks not, of falling.
True, is the soul, that hesitates not, to give.
Alive, is the one, that believes, in love.
JCP


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  #17  
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The federal government has long stayed out of zoning regulations (as per the constitution). When you are moving along at a reasonable pace and acting as a transient not a member of the community, I think you are protected by all of the Federal Laws regarding Navigable Waters. Unfortunately, you might have to sue the local or state government after the fact to protect yourself under federal law, which I know that no one has the money to do or wants to do.

But, when you have some guy floating on anchor and not moving anywhere, or planning to, I consider that that guy is living there and no longer protected by federal law.

I may disagree with some local statues and ordinances, but it is better than the federal government being involved in zoning or the local government involved in navigable waters.

I know it isn't perfect (far from), but it is a pretty neat system that our founding fathers set up.
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Originally Posted by zfactor
Unfortunately, you might have to sue the local or state government after the fact to protect yourself under federal law, which I know that no one has the money to do or wants to do.
That's the problem with the current approach to dealing with those who fall outside of the responsible boaters. Why should someone have to sue the government......to make them obey the law?

Unfortunately, what this is is a political problem, which in this day and age means it falls outside of common sense and reasonableness.
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Free, is the heart, that lives not, in fear.
Full, is the spirit, that thinks not, of falling.
True, is the soul, that hesitates not, to give.
Alive, is the one, that believes, in love.
JCP


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  #19  
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John...you're right...but EVERYWHERE that isn't restrictive has these derelicts and one by one the towns respond with their broad brush. The anchoring law is intended to insure safety at sea for vessels in transit...not the right to drop a hook and stay forever for free. Since the derelicts will always try to do that Zfactor is right about the towns needing to do something AND I think, having the right to do so as long as it does not impact OUR ability to navigate and transit safely. The problem is the overly restrictive measures the towns take like Ft. Lauderdale with its' 24 hour rule. Maybe the Feds could come up with a law that says any restriction which is less than 30 days (or 90 days) is in violation. If REAL boaters would get behind something like this, I think a lot of derelicts would be forced out since their boats can't move AND the rest of us would have the time to enjoy a place, spend our money, and move on.
In none of the above do I espouse the view that homeowners "own" their water view but I believe that MOST enjoy the boats but just don't want the hassels that the derelicts bring. You are correct that they DO influence a lot of the poor laws we see today.
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Old 12-14-2006
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I wonder if it is possible for me to agree with Surf, Cam, and John??

I have been one of those guys who had the nice house on the water. And I will tell you right now that if some crackpot dropped his hook off my dock and planned on staying there like a permamnent mobile home, I would have a late night scuba dive with a pair of bolt cutters!

I worked my butt off to get that house and have that lifestyle: nice yard, house, dock, AND VERY EXPENSIVE REAL ESTATE AND TAXES!!! My taxes alone were more than my boat payments (in fact, I think my school taxes alone were more than my boat payments). So how would you feel if you owned a house, inland for example, and some jerk came and HAD his mobile home delivered on your curb and pumped his head out down your gutter? Paid nothing. Threw his trash out on your yard? Be honest with yourself, and answer truly how you would feel. If you say that you would not care, I would hate to see what your house must look like.

I met some of those people. Many of them were nice, but a lot of them were POS. It is like John said, being a responsible boater and acting accordingly. Laws have to be specific, so they cannot exactly say, "Well, if you aren't a responsible boater, ya just can't anchor here." Phew. I can just seeeeeee the local city officials enforcing that one. I guarantee you that the residents would have the police shipping off everything that was not a Hatteras or a boat-show clean sailboat. I don't agree with that. Maybe putting in a regulation, and enforcing it with some type of visible tag, that requires pump-outs? It would force the boat to move (which most of them cannot, incidentally) and the boat owner to be sober enough (and present) to do it. Again, most of them are not. Most of the derlicts are just that - a no-rent place to drop your hook so you don't have to properly dispose of your boat. And hey, if you are too drunk to walk to the closest bridge for a slumber, maybe you can row to your boat and sleep it off there. Whatever.

Don't confuse these people with cruisers, they are moochers, and their total lack of responsible boating (as John rightfully put it) is not just an eyesore but a very real danger to those of us that are out there doing it "right".

So how have the cities responded? I will tell you what Fort Myers Beach recently did: Mooring balls. No more hooks. I thought it was a great place to go and anchor out and dink around... but all the derelicts and jerks screwed it up for everyone (and believe me, there were a bunch of derelicts). It is a sad state of affaris in our country, but the truth: Speedbump mentality. A lack of common sense from a few will restrict the rights of the many.
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