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Georgia Livaboards Org

10K views 24 replies 14 participants last post by  safira 
#1 ·
In response to the Ga DNR starting to enforce the no liveaboard law in the Savannah Ga area, we have decided to organize and take this to the court of public opinion, since none can afford to fight in court. If you are not aware, anyone using their vessel for human or animal habitation in excess of 30 days in a calendar year in Ga waters is considered a live-aboard, contrary to the public good, and subject to a $10,000/day fine if they are violated under this act.

The first meeting of the organization (all six of us who have been forced to abandon our homes) will take place on Sunday April 6th 2008 in Willmington Island Ga. We hope to have the website up (galiveaboards.org) within the next few days. The focus of the website will be to provide information, and hopefully to organize via the forums and email, the rest of the Ga liveaboards who may not know that DNR has started enforcing this ordinance for the first time in 15 years.

Pass the word, You may be next

Capt David ONeill
SV Escape
 
#2 ·
Living Aboard

We're planning to (or was) live aboard in the Savannah area. After hearing how the DNR is rapidly running through the live aboards in the area, we're more than a little hesitant. Would you recommend following through with our plans to live there or bail out and head north to a less hostile state?

Thanks.
 
#3 ·
Does that include RVs as well? Or do they specifically mention boats? Seems an odd public good law to pass. I would think banning smoking would do more good but be a bit harder to pass. :)

In response to the Ga DNR starting to enforce the no liveaboard law in the Savannah Ga area, we have decided to organize and take this to the court of public opinion, since none can afford to fight in court. If you are not aware, anyone using their vessel for human or animal habitation in excess of 30 days in a calendar year in Ga waters is considered a live-aboard, contrary to the public good, and subject to a $10,000/day fine if they are violated under this act.

The first meeting of the organization (all six of us who have been forced to abandon our homes) will take place on Sunday April 6th 2008 in Willmington Island Ga. We hope to have the website up (galiveaboards.org) within the next few days. The focus of the website will be to provide information, and hopefully to organize via the forums and email, the rest of the Ga liveaboards who may not know that DNR has started enforcing this ordinance for the first time in 15 years.

Pass the word, You may be next

Capt David ONeill
SV Escape
 
#4 ·
I think the Feds might have something to say about this, since it would impact anyone passing through the waters of the state of Georgia, even if they didn't live there permanently, the way you've stated it. For instance, If I was a snowbird sailor, and decided to go down to up to the Chesapeake, and stopped in Georgia for 7 days on my way up from Florida, and then had to stop and stay in Georgia for three weeks for repairs to the engine on my way back to Florida in the fall... I'd be in violation of the law... Even though I would just be delivering my boat from Florida, where it winters, to the Chesapeake, for the summer cruising season, and back...I'd still be guilty of breaking the law.
 
#5 ·
Current law as written

Here is a copy of the pertinent sections of the DNR regs... As to living aboard in GA, we will see, but as of now, I would be in Charleston if I had a choice.

Coastal Marshlands Protection Act
O.C.G.A. § 12-5-280 et. seq.
12-5-288. Restriction on granting of permit; size restriction; activities and structures considered contrary to public interest.
(a) If the project is not water related or dependent on waterfront access or can be satisfied by the
use of an alternative nonmarshland site or by use of existing public facilities, a permit usually
should not be granted pursuant to Code Section 12-5-286.
(b) The amount of marshlands to be altered must be minimum in size. The following activities
and structures are normally considered to be contrary to the public interest when located in
coastal marshlands but the final decision as to whether any activity or structure is considered to
be in the public interest shall be in the sound discretion of the committee:
(1) Filling of marshlands for residential, commercial, and industrial uses;
(2) Filling of marshlands for private parking lots and private roadways;
(3) Construction of dump sites and depositing of any waste materials or dredge spoil;
(4) Dredging of canals or ditches for the purpose of draining coastal marshlands;
(5) Mining;
(6) Construction of lagoons or impoundments for waste treatment, cooling, agriculture, or
aquaculture which would occupy or damage coastal marshlands or life forms therein;
(7) Construction of structures which constitute an obstruction of view to adjoining riparian
landowners, including signs and enclosures; and
(8) Occupying a live-aboard for more than 30 days during any calendar year; provided, however,
that the commissioner may grant extensions of time beyond 30 days to persons making a request
in writing stating the reasons for such extension. Owners of docks where live-aboards are
moored as well as owners and occupants of live-aboards are responsible under this part.


12-5-282. Definitions:
(8) 'Live-aboard' means a floating vessel or other water craft which is moored to a dock, tree, or
piling or anchored in the estuarine waters of the state and is utilized as a human or animal abode.
Live-aboards include but are not limited to monohulls, multihulls, houseboats, floating homes,
and other floating structures which are used for human or animal habitation.

Hope to have the website up and running in the next few days. Forum will be on line. Please stop by and thank you for your interest and support

Capt David ONeill
 
#6 ·
If the boat spends 30 days anchored during multiple transits through the state of Georgia... I don't think the state is going to like the way the Feds are going to react. :)
 
#7 ·
Transients

To the best of my knowledge this is and has not been applied to transients. Of course, this is the first time it is being applied to anyone on a general basis. As to the Feds, they could care less. Unless, of course, you can get it into court, and we are not able to do that at this time. Hence the court of "Public Opinion"

Capt David
 
#8 ·
Dave-

From what you posted:

(8) Occupying a live-aboard for more than 30 days during any calendar year; provided, however, that the commissioner may grant extensions of time beyond 30 days to persons making a request
in writing stating the reasons for such extension. Owners of docks where live-aboards are moored as well as owners and occupants of live-aboards are responsible under this part.

12-5-282. Definitions:
(8) 'Live-aboard' means a floating vessel or other water craft which is moored to a dock, tree, or piling or anchored in the estuarine waters of the state and is utilized as a human or animal abode. Live-aboards include but are not limited to monohulls, multihulls, houseboats, floating homes,
and other floating structures which are used for human or animal habitation.
I don't see anything that says it doesn't apply to transient boats.
 
#10 ·
I don't see anything that says it doesn't apply to transient boats.
__________________
I didn't say it doesn't apply, I said they are not enforcing it on transients

Why was this law passed, or what's the issue with liveaboards in Georgia that caused this to be passed?
Good question... It is our understanding that the regs were passed specifically
to clean out a colony of liveaboards in the upstate area about 15 years ago...
now it is being used for ????? It seems we P***ed is somebodies cornflakes and it is now being enforced again. Whether this is only local to the Willmington Island/Savannah area or statewide remains to be seen.

Does BoatUS have anything to say about this?
Not that we are aware of... Personally I don't expect them to support anything they can't make money off of.
 
#12 ·
Living Aboard Savannah

What do we make of the marinas in Savannah and surrounding areas that claim not to enforce the law and welcomes (in a non self-incriminating way) live aboards and provides services for them? Will the boats in these marinas get tagged just as often or mainly vessels which are anchored out? I understand the definition of the law, I was just curious as to the quality of living aboard illegally in these types of marinas who don't have a problem with it.
 
#13 ·
What do we make of the marinas in Savannah and surrounding areas that claim not to enforce the law and welcomes (in a non self-incriminating way) live aboards and provides services for them? Will the boats in these marinas get tagged just as often or mainly vessels which are anchored out? I understand the definition of the law, I was just curious as to the quality of living aboard illegally in these types of marinas who don't have a problem with it.
So far, here is what is happening here. First folks busted were on the hook although DNR has been "bugging" marina owners for a while. Folks on the hook were told to get off the creek and into a marina and they would be ok. We took that advice, and as soon as we hit the dock (within 48 hrs) DNR contacted the marina owners with an "or else" as the reg says:
Owners of docks where live-aboards are moored as well as owners and occupants of live-aboards are responsible under this part.
This resulted in the 2 of us who moved in off the creek as well as one poor soul who had been flying under the radar getting told to get off the boat or out of the marina.
Down the way, a marina that has 10 to 15 "liveaboards" flying under the radar one couple on board a restored 50' Chris got the boot for not being "stealthy". Having spent some time in this marina I know the owner will allow liveaboards (as long as you pay an extra dollar a foot) but you better be quiet about it. No acting like you live there. No mail, no parties, no comment.
Can't hardly blame the owners for rolling over, as they have to get permitted by DNR and the fines alone could put them under.

Hopefully with enough public opinion we can get this changed so nobody has to sneak around and lie.

Side note: At least Chatham County now considers any vessel anchored in a non-designated anchorage in excess of 30 days "abandoned" unless of course you are living on it, and then guess what. Another issue, but it gives you an idea of what the local authorities are trying to do.

galiveaboards.org is now registered with internic, and we hope to have the website up in a few days. Check there for more updates, discussions, meeting dates etc. Thanks again for the discussion and support.

Regards,
Capt David ONeill
 
#14 ·
I would not assume boat us will not help in some way. they have a good legal staff and might help with some legal advice. maybe more. they are generally helpful when they can be. can't hurt to ask.

They might be able to steer you towards some federal law that takes precident.

Public opinion will be "so what? You freeloaders need to get a life" Good luck with that! The ONLY reason the Marco Island mess got straightened out was the REAL courts were involved, not the court of public opinion. The local 'court of public opinion' was to chase the boat bums away. That's how the mess started in the first place.
 
#15 ·
Are there any new developments with you guys in Chatham? i am curious to see if anyone in other GA counties are dealing with these same issues. I thought that waters classified as navigable by the Army Corps of Engineers were federal waters and no state could write legislation preventing their use.
(Turner's wouldn't be one of these navigable waters, so I am not sure what options if any there are for you guys)
 
#16 ·
Capt David, Please give us a clear understanding of the manner in which the "six were forced to abandon their homes" or the others were "busted" . It would be important when sharing your concerns that you indentify if these were responses to the legal notice; a verbal advice of authority; a served order; a citation; an armed escort and what type and level of authority was involved. I too am very concerned about what is happening in Georgia and I am not making light of your ordeal, but please give us an accurate report beyond "forced" and "busted". Thanks, 'Aythya crew
 
#17 ·
Update

Thanks to all for getting into this discussion no matter what side you are on.

Re: Turner Creek.. Yes it is "navigable waters" up to the bridge at Johnny Mercer Blvd. However, in my research, fed regs only trump state in the case of anchoring (eg: Marcus Island Desc) questions.

Re: Further discussion of circumstances: There is a thread posted at
livingaboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=13&t=000050#000017
giving the facts as we know them. Sorry to point to another forum, but as the galiveaboards.org board is now up, we are trying to get the discussions going there and don't have time to post to every question on all the liveaboard boards. (Sorry the above is not a clickable link, but we don't have enough posts)

However, we will continue to monitor these threads as we started them, and thank you for your interest.

Regards
David
 
#18 ·
This should work:
Living Aboard Forums: Georgia Liveaboards Org

Georgia Liveaboards Organization

David...one thing I noted on the first link is the misconception that states cannot regulate anchoring by live-aboards and citing the Marco Island suit as an example. The feds have ceded to the states the right to regulate inland and coastal waters on such matters. The Marco Island decision was rendered because the STATE law was changed to allow the LOCAL Marco Ordinance to be defeated in court. There was nothing federal about the case...and it may be overturned in the future if the state law is changed again. The key in Florida based on FLORIDA's law is to claim that you are NOT a live-aboard..but rather a full time cruiser.
Vessels in navigation cannot be hindered in their traditional anchoring rights UNDERWAY.
The GA situation seems quite different since it seems to apply to both docked and at anchor boats.
 
#19 ·
This is not a local municipality but a state law applicable to lakes, rivers and the coast. The only people forced out of their boats are in Chatham County. This is strange. I think the law was put in place to deal with homeless on rafts living on the Altamaha River. Now the DNR wants to run a few boat owners out of a bend in one tidal creek in Savannah area? Why are no evictions occurring in Brunswick where the Coastal Resources DNR office is located? I think someone must have some connections to the department and was tired of seeing some of the boats that sit at anchor there year round. It is incredible to interpret the law to make it impossible for marina owners to allow liveaboards. How can someone paying for a slip and pumping out without dumping in the rivers be a hazard to the marshlands of coastal georgia?
 
#20 ·
New laws

The DNR has passed a new law on liveaboards in Georgia.

As of January 1, 2012, if you wish to stay aboard your boat in a marina with sewage pump out facilities for longer than 30 days, you may apply for an extension beyond the 30 days. The notice doesn't seem to have any limit on the length of time you can stay aboard, just the regulations relating to the boat and also to the marina - you have to have a mechanism to secure your holding tank, the marina has to have adequate pump-out facilities, etc.

You can read more information at Georgia Liveaboards - Find the best marina to dock your boat
 
#22 ·
The DNR has passed a new law on liveaboards in Georgia.

As of January 1, 2012, if you wish to stay aboard your boat in a marina with sewage pump out facilities for longer than 30 days, you may apply for an extension beyond the 30 days. The notice doesn't seem to have any limit on the length of time you can stay aboard, just the regulations relating to the boat and also to the marina - you have to have a mechanism to secure your holding tank, the marina has to have adequate pump-out facilities, etc.

You can read more information at Georgia Liveaboards - Find the best marina to dock your boat
To me it sounds like there is way to much discretion for the commissioner. He does not have to give any permits out so I would consider this a possible improvement, but not a victory. Here are the offending portions:

8. The applicant states the reasons for requesting the extension and the period of time for which the extension is requested.
9. The Commissioner, in his or her sole discretion, may grant or deny any request for an extension of time to occupy a live-aboard.
10. The Commissioner, in his or her sole discretion, may consider requests for extensions that do not meet this Rule if the applicant shows extraordinary and extenuating circumstances.
So he does not have to accept the "reasons" he also does not have to give a permit for any reason he desires. Seems like the commissioner has a lot of power over someones life, if they choose to live aboard in GA. Seems to be open to a lot of abuse. Glad I live in New York!
 
#21 ·
There's some pretty places in GA. This change is long overdue! We'd heard rumors about this while we were passing through in Nov. - thanx for posting the link.
 
#23 ·
Good News!
The State of Georgia has just modified the Live-Aboard rule so that it will be legal and practical to say on board your boat in Georgia for more than 30 days. A rule change will allow boaters to fill out a simple form to receive permission to be onboard for up to one year in Georgia so long as the boat is docked at a marina that meets the state's minimum requirements for pump-out facilities. Isle of Hope Marina and just a couple of other marinas currently meet those standards, but I expect that other marinas will upgrade their facilities to take advantage of this rule change. I am heading a committee that will be working with the DNR to finalize the application form in the next few weeks. The rule change will be effective January 1, 2012 . i just found this on the web. it doese not mean that local DNR will stop hurassing. i am interested in attending your meeting this month, if you could email me the time and place. my email address is byrdric16@comcast.net i myself am moving back to the water aand plan to spend 4-6 months in Ga. there are other states trying to enforce such laws but in some cases the federal and corp of engineers have overruled. look forward to attending your meeting
 
#24 ·
Someone asked how this law became ... after chatting with the DNR boys at brunswick here is the answer to that question ... Back when the freeway was being put in ... i would assume the 60's or 70's they sold the barges to a lot of different people that were used to transport equip and parts ... so hence a lot of people decided to put shacks and such on the barges and take up residence ... the pollution on the river areas, I think the Satilla was mentioned, got so bad that this is how the government took action.....
they not only targeted the people on the barges but also all the stilt houses along the rivers to deal with the dumping of untreated sewage in the waterways .... or at least this is what I found out so far.
As to the public opinion poll ... it does not matter what you feel ... this is a bad law and the state looses money all the time because of it, but you have to realize that you are not dealing with people that are very intelligent with the boaters needs ... you can not fight city hall is a old saying that comes to mind, everyone knows it very well, but did you ever read the next passage after that, " but you can sure doo doo on the the doorstep" ...
target the city and state officials and you may get something changed .... the bit with you need to apply or a permit now that is just plain stupid, and we thought Florida was getting bad, some of it is rubbing off on Georgia now .... time to find a place with less B.S. .... wish me luck, I will probaly need it!!!!!
 
#25 ·
It is a bummer that GA has come to enforceing the outdated statue ... but doo doo does happen ... so it is time to be creative, on the south end of the state (FL/GA) we just anchor in the florida side of the river ... try doing the same there scince the savannah river is the dividing line ... then you have a good court case of jurisdiction if they get to pushy ... just a thought
 
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