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  #161  
Old 06-15-2009
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Hey ! People DO read my posts !!!! (Unfortunetely, everyone gets a different message from them)
Apparently not reaching all of the people here.
Some took offense ! others seemed elated, and still others apparently threatened ??
To jim- keep at it , the longest journey starts w/ a single step. (just kidding) I think you mis-interpreted the essence of the post. Try re-reading it when your feeling a bit less angry.
Sailingmum- I don't know what's up w/ you ??? care to elaborate?
As for the other poster that suggested that I should head to Maryland to assist this family- Apparently all the outpouring of kindness here has overwhelmed them and they chose to no longer participate.

For those who understand, there is no need to explain.
For those who fail to understand, there is apparently little point in attempting to explain.
(of course now I will attempt to explain !)

The thing I was attempting (am attempting ) to bring to the surface is this. I see alot of folks making simple things complicated . Often (I feel) to justify the exorbitant fees they command in an attempt to relieve people of there money.
Sailing is NOT a complicated undertaking, unless you choose to make it so.
People have been, and continue to sail far and wide with all manner of craft and crew.
My objection to the sailing "experts" is this- what makes them experts? is it the years of first hand sailing or just being in the right location or financial position in life, to take advantage of the well heeled , under-confident and inexperienced. All the while laughing up there sleaves on the way to the bank w/ YOUR money.
I'm beginning to believe that financial success and inteligence is NOT proportional, based on my own observations.
Why would anyone pay twice as much for the same basic service that is offered for less nearby? Without getting into specifics and naming names ( although I would be happy to, I believe it is frowned upon here).
I have witnessed this repeatedly over the course of my sailing /boating experience. It is by no means isolated in the marine bussiness , it is just more blatent.
Example- yard A charges $500 to lift boat from water and launch. Yard B (just a few miles away) charges $120 to lift and launch .
I cannot understand why anyone would use yard A ???
(all other things being equal,i.e.yard costs,facilities,availability of materials,etc.)
When I see a difference like that, I go out of my way to share that info w/ other Sailors.

As far as "Knowing everything" I can only hope.
I continue to learn new things everyday. I have to, just to survive, I feel obligated to share my ways and the things I've learned with others I meet who are open to listen and I think can benefit from the information. If this is you, I hope it helps.
If your in some way offended, I would be happy to clarify (to the best of my ability) anything that you are confused by.
I often feel the manner in which new people and those seaking assistence/advice here are dealt w/ is often shameful, judgemental and casts along shadow on the sailing community.
It would bring me great pleasure to see this practice curtailed.
do unto others
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  #162  
Old 06-15-2009
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sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by joethecobbler View Post
Wow,
Talk about off topic ! now we're back to lamenting the merits of a survey.
I've already expressed my feelings about "surveys and surverors" in other posts.
On one hand I hear posters claiming experience and knowledge of boats and sailing , then in the same paragraph stating they wouldn't buy a boat w/out a survey ??? So which is it?
Anyone can become a surveyor if they are willing to pay the organizations that represent them (schools,online,study courses).
What makes the "surveyor" all knowing? isn't he/she just another person offering a service for money? Are there any warranties w/ surveys ?
If your too inept to determine the condition of the equipment w/out a paid surveyor, how can you know if the information provided is accurate or relevent when you recieve the survey ?? AND if you are capable of determining the information is accurate, then what did you need a surveyor for to begin with ??
I know the banks ,insurance companies and brokers all tout the merits of surveyors. Somehow I'm just not sold on them.
I guess if your completely inept,inexperienced, and to busy/lazy to educate yourself about boats they may fill a need.
Or, if your just fulfilling the requirements for a loan or insurance policy that will require a survey.
Other than that, I question whether I really want to share the waterways with you, if you're not willing/capable of determining the condition of the boat and equipment you'll be utilizing, what else are you missing ? navigation and rules of the road skills? (basic marine courtesy,i.e.wake,noise,safety)
Reference is made here time and again questioning the judgement of living aboard a potentially unsafe vessel w/ children. I would have to add that if you feel unable to determine the condition of a vessel and equipment your considering aquisition/operation of, and you need to hire someone to tell you if it's worthwhile, then you may be more or at least as much of a risk/danger to yourself, your passengers and others on the water as the former situation, maybe even more so !
I hear all the time from the boat owners tied to the dock (for years upon years) about their vast knowledge and experience ( I always inquire when the last time they-"took her out for a sail")..
Yea, I anchor, I sail (not motor,motorsail) . Of course, I keep the diesel operational, I use it to move in and out of marinas when seeking fuel,water,pumpout. But primarilly I sail.
"If the wind's not blowin' I probably ain't goin' "
I have to add that managing a west marine, or a marina (not a DIY yard that offers dockage and not repair maint. haulout services,etc), does not equate to any vast knowledge of boating , only a knowledge of buss. management .
Even holding certificates from USCG or sailing schools only guarantee one thing- you (or somebody) paid alot of money to get a piece of paper from the organization.
Experience is going, having been, and doing. Really doing , not motoring from marina to marina and paying (outragious fees) to tie up everynight and plug in. Experience is living it , it's ongoing, it's fluent , it's continually learning different inlet's,anchorages,regulations,conditions, and exchanging information with others doing the same (not dock dogs).
Most of the Dock dwellers I speak w/ seem unsure and afraid of what's over the horizon on one hand ( seeking instead the false security of being tied to a dock), but are often the first to adamently council and warn me off of any far ranging travels.
I thank god I quit listening to them years ago. Had I not , I would probably havenever gone and discovered for myself the reality of it, with my own eyes,hands, and with my family (and pets).
As per the cost issues, I never spent more than $1-2000 for a boat, never paid a surveyor and have sailed from St.pete, Fl. to lake Erie and back (yes, I motored the NYS canal system) with family and pets aboard.
It would seem to me that if you got a boat for nothing and wisely,frugally invested money in it's repair, you would , as a result have a worthwhile vessel.
I don't think boat ownership is ever an investment that pays any returns other than the experience,knowledge and pleasure gained from it's use. Never heard anyone remark about boat ownership as a form of investment, usually the opposite, with rare exception.
Rather than seek to obtain council here in this forum I would suggest a trip to the library to read actual accounts from those with verifiable life experiences. Rather than anonymous, faceless internet personas making often unverified claims of vast experience while tied to a dock in a marina between monthly daysails.
Nothing emboldens me more than when someone tells me what I cannot do.
After all somebody had to be first to do it, who surveyed that boat?
Who certified the first surveyor?
How was the first "Captain" ordained?
What a load of claptrap.

Most boaters don't know roving from mat. Most have no idea on how to perform a compression check on a diesel engine or that such a thing as engine oil analysis even exists. Most cannot splice line, let alone wire rope. Few have the least idea on how to lay up fiberglas, pot a thru-hull, or repair a sail.

And a goodly number of the above type people have sailed around the world or competed at the highest levels of racing under sail. I expect they've done so as safely as the next guy or gal.

People with a great deal of experience with automobiles will take one to a mechanic for an evaluation prior to purchase. And if that automobile is something like a Ferrari, they're likely to take it to a very expensive automobile mechanic for that evaluation. They'd rationally do the same thing prior to purchasing a 50' Swan as well, even though they know their Catalina 22 inside and out.

Lighten up, if you would.
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  #163  
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bubb2 has a spectacular aura about bubb2 has a spectacular aura about bubb2 has a spectacular aura about
Joe, I guess I would fore go a survey if I was only spending a thousand or two on a boat like you.

But. I never bought a house without a home inspection, or a used car with out having it looked at by my mechanic.

The last boat I bought cost more than my first two house"s I owned and was new on the dealers boat yard. Yes, I had surveyed. Yes, there were some little things the dealer need to redo. Like rewire the water heater and navigation lights. I would have not caught it myself. Yes, that would have been covered under warranty, but who wants to lose use of their boat for a week or two until the dealer gets around to correcting the problem. I have had a problem free boat for ten years. It was money well spent.
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  #164  
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bubb2 has a spectacular aura about bubb2 has a spectacular aura about bubb2 has a spectacular aura about
Joe, If you be so kind to explain your views to this new owner who did not get his own survey and wants to go back on the owner and broker who sold him the boat.
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-b...ty-survey.html
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  #165  
Old 06-15-2009
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I think my suggestion for you to go help came from your attitude to those that don't know everything. By your post you sure seem to, so my suggestion was to go help. You don't know what most of us have been through, or sailed in. I can tell you this I have seen conditions that most wouldn't want to be near in a $1k boat. I think it was the scent of arrogance that kind of stuck in my throat.....i2f
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  #166  
Old 06-15-2009
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SEMIJim will become famous soon enough SEMIJim will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by joethecobbler View Post
To jim- keep at it , ...
I plan to. The day I stop learning will be the day it's time to lie down and die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joethecobbler View Post
I think you mis-interpreted the essence of the post.
Not unless you're particularly poor at expressing yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joethecobbler View Post
Try re-reading it when your feeling a bit less angry.
Angry? lol! My good man: My wife and I had earlier that day completed a 14 nm race, flying a chute for the first time ever. The weather was beautiful, the air was acceptable-to-good, and we placed 2nd in our class (four boats) and 2nd over-all (10 boats), being beat by a mere three minutes in adjusted time. Then went to the club-house for beer, dogs, and sailing conversation.

I was anything but angry. No, what you were seeing was something significantly different from angry.

Jim
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  #167  
Old 06-15-2009
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Speaking of surveys, I'm considering buying a new anchor. Which is the best type for me? Danforth? Plow? I have a 42' boat, but I only plan on anchoring in water that is 10 feet deep. Do I need more than 10 feet of rope?
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  #168  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by painkiller View Post
Speaking of surveys, I'm considering buying a new anchor. Which is the best type for me? Danforth? Plow? I have a 42' boat, but I only plan on anchoring in water that is 10 feet deep. Do I need more than 10 feet of rope?

I think a survey is appropriate, but I would get 12 feet, so the anchor will touch bottom, and possibly lay down .....i2f
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  #169  
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Lay down? Are you making fun of me i2f? Every picture I've seen of an anchor, they're standing up. See?



Even on tattoos!



I'm just asking for help. You shouldn't make fun of someone asking for help.
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  #170  
Old 06-15-2009
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Good Morning Sailors, and the rest of you also.
Seems many are confused and vehemently opinionated. That's good , I guess.
Nothing more healthy than open discussion and airing of views.
I'll attempt to respond to each of you. I'm sure you'll let me know if I missed anything.

Bubb2- I read the thread you linked to. And I have to say it bolsters exactly the point I was trying to make. The buyer put his faith in the Broker and surveyor ,they got his money, and now he's screwed ! Is that a fair assessment of the situation? or am I not reading it right? My take on that-
Broker= used car salesman
Surveyor= Mechanic in pocket of aformentioned broker.
Un-informed,in-experienced,potential boat owner = easy mark for broker and surveyor.
Conclusion I draw - Maybe he should have spent more time in the library and the boatyard learning and educating himself , could have avoided present situation.
now he can spend time learning about maritime contract law.

Jim- Thanks for the race report, glad to hear you did well. Still a little cranky ? Sore muscles ? old age is tough. keep your chin up. And yes, expressing myself in a manner that is interpreted by a wide and varying audience IS a challenge. I 'll strive to do better in the future (with your help,of course).
Imagine2frolic - Allow me to clarify my "attitude" towards others (as previously pointed out , I need to improve my communication/writing skills)
I was attempting to point out that although you may NOT have a complete understanding of all the systems aboard and they seem overwhemingly complicated at first. YOU CAN LEARN and it can be rewarding and give you great piece of mind.Not to mention, should one of those systems fail when your in a less than favorable situation (is there a good situation for breakdowns) , you will be better equiped to truobleshoot and possibly repair the failure (avoiding tradjedy, or towing fees).
I have to concede that I often take for granted my ability to repair things (I refer to it as "the curse") , it has evolved from a lifetime of marginal poverty and the desire to have "things" , that I figured out early on in life, I might only get to play with second hand after I pulled them from the trash or found forgotten in someones back yard and repaired them myself w/ materials at hand.
To paraphrase- Neccesity is the mother of invention.

Sailaway21- Thank you for making my point, Many don't know the difference between Epoxy and fiberglas resin. or the different test methods available to troubleshoot problems and pinpoint the cause. That is exactly what I was trying to point out ! These truths are not disputed. What I am mystified at, is, why not LEARN ? There are piles of books on the topic,
Chapmans-new version every year
How to sail around the world- Hal Roth
Bernard Montessier- A sea vagabond's world
The thousand dollar yacht-Anthony Bailey
The complete Sailing Book- Peter cook and Barbara web
More Boatkeeper- (preceded by boatkeeper I presume) Bernard Gladstone
From a bare hull- ference mate
offshore crew-jeremy howard williams
Basic Sailing- M.B. george
The complete canvas workers guide- jim grant
designing small craft - john teale
Mariners rules of the road -william p. crawford
These are just what I pulled off the shelf behind me. I'm sure their are thousands more.
What could possibly be your objection to reading and learning? It's often how I pass my time when constrained by weather or other delays. And, I enjoy it ! every example you can give that shows someone paying to have services "professionaly" performed. I can show you 10 examples of people getting mistreated. And just as many hobbiests repairing there own sports cars,airplanes,boats,etc themselves and more often than not getting alot more out of the experience.
I didn't come out of the womb with any knowledge of boating (or anything else), I learned along the way (as we all do). One of the things I learned early on is that there is/are a never ending supply of people making false or questionable claims of abilities in an effort to influence you to hand over the cash.
I would have to suppose you would rather spend your time reading the fine print in a contract written by those, with often times, there own interests before yours, (salesmen,attorneys) than learning about a sport/lifestyle/hobby you enjoy.
I'm also considering that the reason my approach is foreign to you is because you may approach other aspects of you life in the same manner as you approach sailing. Pay somebody you want to believe knows more than you and hope you don't get ripped off.
where as I strive to pay no-one (usually because I cannot afford the outragious fees) and prefer to learn to do it myself.
Example- I wan't to learn about clamming in florida. I first read all available liturature I could find. Second-I answered an add from a commercial fisherman and explained I would like to learn to clam and would provide a days free labor in echange for the lesson. Now I clam whenever I want(and oyster also !) . he was happy for the help and I gained knowledge,a marketable skill and made an aquaintence. win-win all around.
I look forward to your responses and different interpretations of these and other sailing related issues.
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