Opposition to liveaboards - Page 23 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Living Aboard
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree177Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #221  
Old 01-02-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,988
Thanks: 10
Thanked 138 Times in 124 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidney777 View Post
...as you will see this post will anger some here on sailnet with other opinions and open a whole new can of worms.
Not angry here.

While your assessment of the sailing community's opinion on this matter may fall in the camps you describe, the only thing that matters here is the person that invested millions of dollars into the marina for it to exist.

They get to decide whether they want messy or neat or to deal with 24/7 customers or whatever. I see no one suggesting that isn't the bottom line.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #222  
Old 01-02-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,170
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidney777 View Post
.. You live in Portugal??
...as you will see this post will anger some here on sailnet with other opinions and open a whole new can of worms.
Yes and no. I Live here on the winter, on spring and summer I live aboard, for now somewhere in the med.

Yes, that's what I thought. It seems to me that people was just scratching the surface on this thread. I like people that speak openly but as my great father used to say: Your rights stop when the rights of someone else begun.

Freedom does not mean absence of ruling. That's Anarchy where the stronger will prevail and on the world we live the strongest are the richer. I guess you don't want that.

Regards

Paulo
chef2sail likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #223  
Old 01-02-2013
smurphny's Avatar
Over Hill Sailing Club
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Adirondacks NY
Posts: 2,853
Thanks: 55
Thanked 63 Times in 61 Posts
Rep Power: 6
smurphny is on a distinguished road
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

I think one of the underlying issues is the slow disappearance of DIY boatyards. There are still some of us who like to work on our own boats and couldn't really afford $100/hr. for a marina to do the work. To us, doing the work is a large part of the reason we have a boat. It seems that as a business a lot of these family type boatyards are becoming unsustainable. Taxes, insurance, power, and all the other costs to run a marina must be staggering. There seem to be fewer places that middle class people can keep a boat now than there were 30 years ago. It is another reflection of the squeeze being experienced by working people and the polarization taking place in America.
inshallamiami and Brent Swain like this.
__________________
Alberg 35: With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #224  
Old 01-02-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,988
Thanks: 10
Thanked 138 Times in 124 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

DIY boatyards can be environmental nightmares. Many boatyards are deciding to drop certain services or only sell certain products in order to avoid having to install remediation systems that cost a ton. Having hard to manage DIY'ers is probably a death sentence with the local environs authorities.

I find it remarkable that ours will still allow you to paint your own bottom, but you must use a dust collection system when you sand. However, I'm sure these days are numbered. Many are volunteering to only apply eco-friendly paints to avoid having to install power washing water collection/filtering systems. They won't be able to insure this practice, if they don't manage the product.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #225  
Old 01-02-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,170
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
I think one of the underlying issues is the slow disappearance of DIY boatyards. There are still some of us who like to work on our own boats and couldn't really afford $100/hr. for a marina to do the work. To us, doing the work is a large part of the reason we have a boat. It seems that as a business a lot of these family type boatyards are becoming unsustainable. Taxes, insurance, power, and all the other costs to run a marina must be staggering. There seem to be fewer places that middle class people can keep a boat now than there were 30 years ago. It is another reflection of the squeeze being experienced by working people and the polarization taking place in America.
Building a marina and keep it in good condition with adequate security is an expensive business specially if you are going to do it from scratch and not taken advantage of a sheltered place that was public.

Most marinas here take their sustainability from urban developments that are associated with or then on a way or another have a lot of public money on it, or because state and government contributed for creating the conditions for its to existence (break walls protection, access and so on) or because they subsidize it, openly or not.

The only ones that are sustainable are the huge ones near important towns or the ones that are in very nice cruising grounds and on each case the prices are huge and are huge because it is very expensive to build and run a marina.

Regarding working on the boat some marinas (at least on the Med) offer dry land spaces were you can work on your boat for less money that would cost having your boat on the water. Far away from the boats in the water you are not going to be a nuisance to others and can work at will not disturbing anybody.

Off course this type of marinas are not on the nicest places simply because there the space is very valuable. On that kind of marinas it cost you a lot more money to have the boat on dry that in the water simply because they have a lot more places on the water and normally the only places in dry are associated in a way or another with the marina shipyard so they don't let you work on the boat.

That has all to do with freedom and sustainability.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-02-2013 at 07:28 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #226  
Old 01-02-2013
smurphny's Avatar
Over Hill Sailing Club
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Adirondacks NY
Posts: 2,853
Thanks: 55
Thanked 63 Times in 61 Posts
Rep Power: 6
smurphny is on a distinguished road
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
DIY boatyards can be environmental nightmares. Many boatyards are deciding to drop certain services or only sell certain products in order to avoid having to install remediation systems that cost a ton. Having hard to manage DIY'ers is probably a death sentence with the local environs authorities.

I find it remarkable that ours will still allow you to paint your own bottom, but you must use a dust collection system when you sand. However, I'm sure these days are numbered. Many are volunteering to only apply eco-friendly paints to avoid having to install power washing water collection/filtering systems. They won't be able to insure this practice, if they don't manage the product.
The marina owners I know are scared about the collection systems. This is a perfect example of useless, intrusive, Gov't./EPA out of control nonsense.
Minnewaska likes this.
__________________
Alberg 35: With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #227  
Old 01-02-2013
hellosailor's Avatar
Plausible Deniability
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,655
Thanks: 2
Thanked 93 Times in 91 Posts
Rep Power: 10
hellosailor has a spectacular aura about hellosailor has a spectacular aura about
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

"WE are a democracy."
Not quite, Sidney. In a real democracy, which is sometimes called a "direct democracy", your vote runs things.
What we have in America is a "democratic republic" which is a republic, not a democracy. We vote for minions, ergh, leaders, but it is they in turn who make the laws and run the country, and they can pretty much do whatever they please, whether the original voters like it or not.
You might say this is a small difference, but it is a real one. We've had presidents elected by the Electoral College, who lost the actual democratic common vote. And we see our Congress, even now, refusing to write a budget to run the nation, and behaving so irresponsibly that our stock market stays in chaos while we have committed our militaries to overseas combat without the courtesy of declaring a war. Time after time.

In theory, the stewards of a good republic will do what is necessary for the public good, rather than what is merely popular, saving us from a mobocracy. In practice? Finding good stewards is in many ways harder than finding a good plumber, or a cheap boatyard.

But a democracy? Good lord, no. America was never founded as one. That's another lie told to placate the schoolchildren. Voters should be better informed.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #228  
Old 01-02-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,998
Thanks: 5
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
Rep Power: 11
wind_magic has a spectacular aura about wind_magic has a spectacular aura about wind_magic has a spectacular aura about
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

I deleted my own post because it will only take this thread even further off topic.

In the end a lot of this is the same kind of complaint that people in formally rural areas have about urban sprawl -- there are just more people in the world, fighting for limited real estate, and that happens on the coastline as much as anywhere else. Where did all the DIY boat yards go ? They are probably condo's now, or in some other way they were pushed out by higher prices, higher taxes, lower public interest, or whatever reason. If you want the same experience as 50 years ago you have to go afar, it just doesn't exist in many places any more than the farms that used to be there, it has all simply disappeared.

In many ways this entire "Opposition to Liveaboards" thread is really about the new property owners on the coast and their "rights" (or perceived rights) to enjoy their property regardless of who used to be there, regardless of the live aboards who have always anchored at their doorstep, etc. It's the same argument that happens in rural areas when urban people move to the country and build a big house on the hill and then complain because the farmer continues to spread manure on his field. It is the same marinas, but there are a lot more wealthy boat owners that want to use them for the simple fact that there are more wealthy people on the coasts that own boats, and the people who own the marinas charge more because they can, and because they have to in order to cover their expenses, to cover their increased property taxes, the increased value of their property that could be used for water front condo's, etc.
inshallamiami, PCP and Brent Swain like this.
__________________
What are you pretending not to know ?

Please support my
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by wind_magic; 01-02-2013 at 02:10 PM. Reason: Edit
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #229  
Old 01-02-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 199
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
LauderBoy is on a distinguished road
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
So, a question: Why this is so important, I mean why this topic is so hot among the members of this forum? What is at stake here that is so meaningful to cruisers?
It hits on a lot of issues. Many cruisers have seen good places to anchor/put in at a slip disappear over the years. There are a lot of reasons for it. New environment laws, coastal land being worth more and more, cruisers being blamed for issues that aren't their fault, etc etc.

Then you also have a bit of push and pull between a few styles of cruisers/live aboards. The clean freaks, the scruffy salty boats, people who rarely leave the dock vs those who sail a couple times a week, etc. Basically everyone approaches the lifestyle differently.

And since you're talking about a person's way of life it tends to draw more interest/point of view than, say, choice of cat food.

But at the end of the day live aboards are all part of the same community and they do stick together.
PCP likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #230  
Old 01-03-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,373
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Thank god I live in a place where the use of marinas is optional! I find that staying out of them completely solves the above mentioned problems. With my super low maintenance, twin keel steel sloop, I have only hauled out twice in 28 years , both times in Tonga, due to a 5,000 mile, mostly windward sail ahead of me.
Here in BC, all people are doing to avoid the rules is find a deserted bay, far from the control freaks ,to do their work in. There is no shortage of such places, far from any serious chance of anyone encountering a government control freak. See one coming and they head into the bush, no problem.
__________________
Brent Swain, Boat designer, Builder, and author of "Origami Metal Boatbuilding"
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bangladesh denies bail to 33 opposition leaders - KFVS NewsReader News Feeds 0 05-16-2012 07:40 AM
WNC Mustangs face tough opposition in Champions League (Sun Star) NewsReader News Feeds 0 09-26-2006 02:15 PM
School plan sailing, for now Little opposition yet to idea of new elementary center (Scranton Times-Tribune) NewsReader News Feeds 0 05-29-2006 04:15 AM
Re: Outer Brewster Island LNG site faces Park Service opposition NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 05-21-2006 07:25 AM
Outer Brewster Island LNG site faces Park Service opposition NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 05-19-2006 08:15 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:16 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.