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  #41  
Old 10-11-2012
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Sadly it is the price to pay for living in paradise. The government agencies in California control the building and use permit process and their goal is to limit growth along the coast line and waterfronts. It doesn’t matter how well equipped a marina is if the goal is to limit the number of people living along the water. In the Bay Area, they have closed down marinas for non-compliance with environmental regulations and all but stopped the building of new ones. Most of the houseboats in Sausalito are now gone. They came very close to banning copper based bottom paint on all recreational vessels. Our club at one time applied for a building permit to fill in our then unused swimming pool. The BCDC would only sign-off if we opened up our private club grounds to public access. In order to get a permit to do some renovations inside the clubhouse we had to agree to extend the Bay Trail through our club grounds (at our own expense!).
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  #42  
Old 10-12-2012
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Emoney- Ok , you got me. I have to tell you I don't go from town to town and marina to marina and harrass the help about the rates. Rather , As I sail about , up and down the east coast I meet people , discuss topics of interest and the status of local marinas, anchoring ,management attitudes as well as the temperment of the local authorities always seem to come up after the initial "where you going, where you been " discussions are exhausted.
So, "on The surface" it may seem that way and seeing that perspective in print certainly struck a chord w/ me as I wouldn't want to be percieved as an ass that merely goes from buss. establishment to establishment w/ the sole purpose of mocking the practices their.
On a slightly different chord, I find it extremely interesting the almost completely different views presented by Che2sail and wingnwing while both have stated valid views and concerns the perceptions of each are so different it speaks to something I am unable to put into words. On one hand you have an opinion and perspective of a YC member abd HOA homeowner of aparent means and on the other a cruising sailor whom is quite obviously "out there" doing what many dream of. THe difference in their perspectives and attitudes towards this topic are fascinating to me. And make me ask myself HOW they have arrived at there positions and I keep coming back to their life experiences and economic standing which I believe are entwined when a person goes through life and certainly expresses the differences in the un-official class warfare in our culture.
But as the country singer who's name I cannot recall says- I could be wrong.
Just sayin'
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  #43  
Old 10-12-2012
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Joe, Joe say it aint so

You have made classic assumptions of facts not in evidence and let your preconcieved sterotypes of what a yacht club member and a live aboard cruiser colour your thinking to the point where you have extrapolated that the discussion and difference in opinions are class warefare. You are way off base here

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And make me ask myself HOW they have arrived at there positions and I keep coming back to their life experiences and economic standing which I believe are entwined when a person goes through life and certainly expresses the differences in the un-official class warfare in our culture.joethecobbler
First of all let me say that Wingnwing and her husband and my wife and I are good friends, part of a close knit sailing group in the Chesapeake and have gotten together socially over 10 times. We enjoy each others company, stories, share recipies, knowledge and a great amount of laughter together. I have the UTMOST respect for her and her opinons and live vicariously through her when they go to the Carribean most years. She is my mentor in some respects and has a wealth of sailing experience and life knowledge as does her husband. They are active memebers on many groups includding SCCA and in the community. A number of us in our sailing community here would like to have seen her asked to become a moderator on Sailnet because she represents to quintessential facillitator and would help to bring people together with her wealth of knowledge, experience, and positive demeanor. I can tell you there is no " class warfare" between us no do we look at each other as in different classes. She and I both abhor and prejudices in life and have actively worked in society to prevent them. Please do not bring that into the intellectual discussion she and I were contributing to and make it about that. You took a leap into the unknown here on the internet and as one of my favorite says on Law and Order goes...presented facts not in evidence.

Lets start about our facilities. I belong to the oldest YC on the Chesapeake. It has a long tradition and has been FINANCIALLY solvent for over 106 years now. It does not discriminate in choosing its membership. Each of the 114 memebers ( slipholders) is a voting member of the club. We have elected Boards which run and govern the club, watch and control over the finances, and make policy decisions concerning the club. We hire a staff of 5 FT and 15 PT employees including a professional chef, a facilities manager, an accounting clerk, supervised by a general manager who also sells banquets. We are a not for profit corporation. The Board which I have volunteered for at various times has the responsibility for keeping the club solvent as well as setting the policies of the club. I am not sure what your preconcieved notions are about Yacht Clubs, but they are all as different as there are people on the Earth and they shouldnt be lumped together. We volunteer for some of the committees and boards of the club to keep it running which in a marinia this is done strictlky by the owner., Yes we have our token "officers running aroiund in uniformns" who take care of the social as well as the traditional aspects of the club. They are seperate from the financial aspects which are run like a business. The YC belongs to a larger association of YC both on the Chessie (25) and nationawide which lets us when we travel or they travel have reciprocity, reduced slip rates, safe port in a storm, and a friendly place when we travel with our boat to NE as well as when my wife and I have chartered in California.

Wingng belongs to a very prestigous marinia in presitigous downtown Annapolis one of the prime location spots in all of the East Coast for sailing. It also is a working yard and has many yacht brokerages present there. It has facilities second to none. While we are a small YC with a pool, showers, fuel dock, clubhouse.....their facility is ours times 10. It is owned by a private money making corporation and the slipholders like wingnwing have no say in policies or rates of the marinia.

Suffice it to say in your implied class warefare comment. A 60x16 slip in my club costs $2200 yearlly and a similar one in Wingnwings would be over $7800 per year. Even with the added member dues of $1000 and the restaurant chit of $1000 it would cost us twice as much to stay wingnwings facility with no say in anything. We chose to stay where we were somewhat because of the double the cost in her facility. Our fees have not increased in three years because of our "good stewardship" in running our club. This in spite of declining membership due to the economy. We have increased our number of outside catering events which has helped us financially.

Quote:
And make me ask myself HOW they have arrived at there positions and I keep coming back to their life experiences and economic standing which I believe are entwined when a person goes through life and certainly expresses the differences in the un-official class warfare in our culture.-joethecobbler
What exactly does this mean?

Our club voted to allow 10% liveaboards a few years ago after doing a thorough financial impact analysis as well as looking at the benefits of having people there year round. During 3-4 months of the year it was virtually closed and this changed its dynamics. Our decison was based STRICTLY on this and not by some "life experiences and economic standing" as you have stated. I am partly responsible to maintain the financial viability of the club of 100 years with my vote thats all. If you read the thread carefully you will see that wingnwing agree on this responsibility and that we also agree that the figure of the percentage should not be set arbitrarily by the county but should be looked at on a case by case basis at each facility.

Quote:
But as the country singer who's name I cannot recall says- I could be wrong.
Just sayin' -joethecobbler
You are dead wrong and have allowed your own sterotypes to intervene into your reasoning. Look before you leap next time and make statemtns about class warefare which are devisive and help perpetuate sterotypes.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 10-12-2012 at 09:30 AM.
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  #44  
Old 10-12-2012
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Quote:
Originally Posted by joethecobbler View Post
...
On a slightly different chord, I find it extremely interesting the almost completely different views presented by Che2sail and wingnwing while both have stated valid views and concerns the perceptions of each are so different it speaks to something I am unable to put into words. On one hand you have an opinion and perspective of a YC member abd HOA homeowner of aparent means and on the other a cruising sailor whom is quite obviously "out there" doing what many dream of. THe difference in their perspectives and attitudes towards this topic are fascinating to me. And make me ask myself HOW they have arrived at there positions and I keep coming back to their life experiences and economic standing which I believe are entwined when a person goes through life and certainly expresses the differences in the un-official class warfare in our culture.
But as the country singer who's name I cannot recall says- I could be wrong.
Just sayin'
This is perhaps worth pursuing, Joe. I think you've got the right conclusion for the wrong reasons - or maybe the wrong conclusion for the right reasons? Anyway, our difference of opinion is more complex than classism/economic standing. How I know that for sure, is that Chef and his wife, and Dan and I, know each other in real life and call each other friend; our politics and to some extent backgrounds are similar (similar age & hometown); and we're pretty much in the same financial bracket, though we've prioritized our spending differently. It's also true that our positions aren't quite as opposed as they look - we both think that liveaboards need to pay for the services they consume (although we may differ on how that contribution should be measured and taxed) and both believe that the individual marine entity should determine how many or few liveaboards it can support.

We have to look elsewhere for the difference of opinion and I think its worth exploring, then, what you suggested about how much the entertwining of experience and economics plays the role of shaping outlook, because money certainly affects the kind and number of experiences you have. The very most obvious of these being that we were able to retire, fully funded, relatively young, and start cruising sooner. My parents planted the travel bug on me early; my first international trip was when I was about 12, and at least one every year from then until I left home for good.

Then there's the other pretty obvious stuff. When we travel by land, we don't stay in 5-star hotels, but at the same time, we don't have to stay in the fleabags on the sketchy side of town, either, and that certainly affects the people we meet and what we do. When storms are predicted, we can afford to stay in marinas in relative security rather than on the hook wondering who will drag - again, the character of our cruising is a little different because of this. Etc, etc.

Here's another possibility to speculate on: does how "rooted" you are to a particular location affect your attitude? If you've grown up and lived much of your life in one part of the country, built a house there and invested in it, makes sense to me that you'd be more protective of that, than if you can simply raise anchor and move on if the area is not to your liking. This is for good and bad - the good is that we can be pretty laid back about places and how they choose to be, but on the other hand, the bad is that we're not motivated to put in the energy to help improve conditions, either.
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  #45  
Old 10-12-2012
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Ha! I was composing while Chef was posting - interesting that we've independently come to similar conclusions.
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  #46  
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

FWIW, Chef has underestimated the cost of our slip. Just got our next year's contract, sigh. If we were just keeping the boat here and living elsewhere and weekending, we'd probably be looking for a different home base. But there's the difference of being a fulltime liveaboard - this is the view I want to wake up to every morning and the community I want to come home to every evening, and since we have no other housiing costs, we can pay almost as much for 8 pilings and a rectangle of water, and the associated amenities, as a 1-bedroom apartment here... minus the view, of course!
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  #47  
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Chef2sail and WingNwing...well said...
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  #48  
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Wingnwing

You could come to MYC for 1/2 the amount of money ( smiles), Same water view, actually quiter. You do have the working yard in your favor. Is that worth $5000 per year? I know you guys are attached to the Annapolis area and love it there.

You are right also about retiring and what we are used to. I am fortunate also that I will be able to in about years at the ripe old age of 591/2. Donna and I downsized from each owning two houses to what we have now and I think we will always have a land based type of home ( low maintainence) for a number of reasons. We like the fact that it is an asset that Appreciates and actually adds to our financial position. If one of us ( or when) becomes sick or ill we have a home to come to, I like the ability to be on the edge of a farm/ forest and see the birds and trees, and then go to my boat and see a different view. I lived on the beach at the Jersey shore for 20 years and never saw a bird ( gulls are rats with wings) or a tree. I love our fireplace. I feel blessed that I have the best of both worlds.

We are looking for the right boat I know it wont be the same racer/ cruiser our haleakula is) to cruise to the bahamas/ Florida/ Carribean with for 4 months a years, I actually the type of cruising Crusing Donna and I will do will be similar to Wingnwing and her husband. ( Maybe thats one of the many similarities we have that makes us so compatable). We appreciate the simple things in life... the peaceful view of the water and the outrageous sunset and good company.

As stated when you have roots, and investment in property, it does change you veiw about keeping it pristine and making improvments..what the neighborhood looks like....that protects your investment. Thats is a different level of commitment than living aboard where when you dont like things you just pull up anchor and move on. Ones not better or right...just different and certainly does not reflect a difference in classes.

Like I said previously wingnwing and her husband are friends and mentors, Yes I have plenty of offshore and sailing experience, but none as a cruiser. I listen to them with interest and respect their experience in a whole part of the sailing arena I want to do eventually ( not that far away really). I also respect their personalities and uniqueness too. I live vicariously through their blog/ posts when they have gone down south. I am hoping that when I retire I can be as relaxed as they are. As wingnwing stated we both grew up at similar times and actually share a lot of the same values from that time period. It helps us connect in that area.

I dont necessarily beleive in the melting pot theory, I dont beleive we all have to melt together or give up our identities which make us unique....I like the tossed salad theory better. It takes many different ingredients with different textures/ tastes to make a good tossed salad. You are part of the greater whole salad, but retain the identity of your individual ingredient. Many we have met in the sailing community have led our experience to remain a positive one which keeps building, from my early instructors, to my racing friends with whom I have raced the last 15 years with, to the deliveries and offshore experiences I have had on other boats, the 1500, crossing the Atlantic twice, to our many friends and aquantemces on the Chessie, Sailnet, Anthing Sailing forums, and our yacht club. These experiences tend to shape my decisions, not a differenece in class.

I am digressing now...back to the liveaboard theme


Dave
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Last edited by chef2sail; 10-12-2012 at 12:18 PM.
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  #49  
Old 10-12-2012
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

".they told us the live aboard rate was going to go up $200 a month! Is there opposition to "
Welcome to the free market economy. There's a limited supply, so the folks who own it are charging everything they can get. Kinda like the airlines. Oh, would you like priority seating at the dingy dock? That'll be an extra $10 if you use our cleats, didn't you bring your own? Water's free, but there's a hose surcharge if you want to use our hose. Wait a minute, am I being hosed?

Yeah, welcome to the 21st century. Be glad there are no flying cars, there'd be oil dripping from the skies along with loose nuts and bolts.
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  #50  
Old 10-12-2012
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Wingnwing

You could come to MYC for 1/2 the amount of money ( smiles),
LOL, Dave, but it would be one heckuva dinghy trip every time we wanted to go downtown Annapolis, instead of just a few hundred yards across the creek.

Appreciate the vote of confidence, though! And the standing invitation.
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