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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Living Aboard
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  #81  
Old 10-15-2012
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

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Originally Posted by neverknow View Post
Many times these days you find those type people still find enough money to smoke cigarettes, drink beer and play lottery or go to the casino. They probably still have a smart phone and flat screen TV.

It's rare in the USA to find a truly broke person. If you want to see real poverty you should travel to Africa or Haiti.

Also it doesn't take much money to keep your boat clean and well organized. Maybe it takes a non-lazy person to carry the trash to the dumpster but not much cash.
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  #82  
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

One of the basic things in basic training (or OCS) is keeping your stuff and yourself neat and clean. I've seen people from every walk of life and every intelligence level get it down. There are no excuses for the able bodied. If you're not able bodied, then you're not likely to be living aboard a sailboat.
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  #83  
Old 10-15-2012
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Quote:
Originally Posted by neverknow View Post
Many times these days you find those type people still find enough money to smoke cigarettes, drink beer and play lottery or go to the casino. They probably still have a smart phone and flat screen TV.

It's rare in the USA to find a truly broke person. If you want to see real poverty you should travel to Africa or Haiti.

Also it doesn't take much money to keep your boat clean and well organized. Maybe it takes a non-lazy person to carry the trash to the dumpster but not much cash.
I agree with that. Most people can not have money for a new boat but if they make the job themselves there is no economic reason for not having an old boat neat an clean. I guess that is a personal and also a cultural thing.

This summer among other places I cruised on the South of Italy (the poorest zone of Italy) and I was truly amazed with the dilapidated look of the small fisherman cities near the water and the amount of dirt and garbage on the big cities. On the South of Portugal, also the poorest zone of the country, they keep their villages neat and clean and they have proud on that. I am quite sure that they have less money than the Italians.

Regards

Paulo
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  #84  
Old 10-15-2012
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
To live in a mooring in public waters is far worse than to live in a marina. A marina is not public, you pay for it, a mooring is in public waters. If you are occupying permanently one space you are preventing all others from using a space that belong to all. In Europe in most places they will only allow sailors to be there for a short amount of time (in some places one day) and it is fair, it is the way to warranty that all can enjoy that place.

Regards

Paulo
Several popular anchorages here are wrestling with this distinction now - if you've anchored in a spot for a season or several years - even if you keep your boat clean and pump out regularly, etc - haven't you just taken public property and converted it to your own private benefit.?
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  #85  
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

wing-
" haven't you just taken public property and converted it to your own private benefit.? "
Not at all, not here in the US. While it is possible to "convert" someone else's property to your own, legally, in most or all states, it is not possible to take and convert sovereign property. So first of all, if you are dealing with public property, you can't take it and convert it.
Then there's a matter of difference between anchoring IN public waters while ON public or private bottomland. It is quite common to have public waters, navigable waters, with privately owned bottom land under the water. When a local village, town, county, or state happnes to own the bottom, that bottom may be "public" in the sense that it is set as part of a public commons, or it may be "government property" subject to use according to however the owner has set terms.
That often means "there are oysters on the bottom. You can sail past them, but only residents with an oyster license can take them." Or it can mean "this bottom belongs to the town, and residents are free to moor their boats there, if they pay an annual mooring fee." Almost anything goes.
Taking it and converting it? No, the law says that never happens to sovereign property. Sure, mooring your boat means someone else can't moor there, that's called "sharing". Just like a public water fountain (remember those?) if you stand there and drink all day, no one else can. Do that often enough and the town will pass a "you can only drink for five minutes" rule and then send the sheriff around. (G)
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  #86  
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
...
Taking it and converting it? No, the law says that never happens to sovereign property. Sure, mooring your boat means someone else can't moor there, that's called "sharing". Just like a public water fountain (remember those?) if you stand there and drink all day, no one else can. Do that often enough and the town will pass a "you can only drink for five minutes" rule and then send the sheriff around. (G)
Thanx, that's exactly what I was trying to say. You said it better.
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  #87  
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

In the SF Bay Area, most marinas officially limit liveaboards to 10% of total slips. As I recall, that number is set by statute.
My marina now has a no live aboard policy, though, the parking lot is 25% full every night, and everybody knows there are many live aboards. The electronic gate keys report to the marina office, so they obviously know it as well. In the past,the legal live aboard situation apparently got out of hand with conflicts, and a shanty town type of climate, so the marina banned liveaboards altogether.
The Liveaboard fees mentioned in this thread make me laugh. Most live aboard fees in this area are $500-$600 IN ADDITION to the regular slip fees! Still, very reasonable rent for the bay area, and most marinas have long waiting lists.
Apparently, my marina thinks the hassle of managing the liveaboards is not worth the extra income. The fact that our liveaboards are "illegal" makes them keep a low profile. On the other hand, our docks and facilities still get the added wear and tear that liveaboards cause, without added compensation.
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  #88  
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingNwing View Post
Several popular anchorages here are wrestling with this distinction now - if you've anchored in a spot for a season or several years - even if you keep your boat clean and pump out regularly, etc - haven't you just taken public property and converted it to your own private benefit.?
Here, on the Med, that was never a problem till the huge increase in sailboats. Then it started to be noticed that for some folks the idea of cruising in a sailboat was to lay on anchor on a nice place and be there all summer, some even let the anchor line attached to the dinghy and went with the sailboat to have a bit of sail, returning to the previous spot.

This situation lead that the nicer anchorages and the best spots were "taken" for the entire season by some cruisers, if we can call them that.

Face to this situation and responding to many complaints from the "real cruisers" the local authorities acted (to my knowledge and in different countries) in different ways :

They authorized individuals to lay on the place buoy camps, forbidden anchorage on the place. This way they not only increase the number of boats that can share the place but also and because those buoys are expensive, discouraged the ones that use to stay there all summer long. One of the reasons they were doing that was because it was inexpensive.

In other cases and places they forbid anchorage for more than a day or two. On others they charge for the anchorage. On Ibiza bay (some years back) they allow you to anchor, but only at evening for the night. In the morning they clear the place this way allowing that cruising boats (that are cruising) find a safe place to anchor for the night.

When there are too many boats somebody has to rule and you cannot expect cruisers and mostly charters to solve the problem by themselves. It would be nice and in less crowded waters I saw sometimes respect and good seamanship, I mean guys that come to the anchorage turn around see that there are no safe place there (without putting in risk other boats) and go away looking for another anchorage.

Unfortunately in the Islands of Central Croacia when the anchorage is full they keep coming and dropping the anchor on top of the boats that are already there. I mean it, I passed two or three nights sleeping on the cockpit because some guys just put their anchors on top of mine. The situation is so bad that these guys come already to the spot with all fenders out That happens not only because there are many boats but also because there are guys that stay many days on a nice spot.

Well, I will not sail there anymore while they will find a solution for that, I mean they have the solution of paid buoys but I don't like that one, Ok it is alright for one that charters a boat for one or two weeks (the 27 euros for buoy, the 250 or 300 euros, are acceptable regarding the price of the charter) but for one that cruises longer it is just too expensive.

I prefer the restriction of time in a given anchorage. In public waters a nice spot should not be monopolized by one person as if it was his property.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-15-2012 at 11:59 AM.
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  #89  
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
One of the basic things in basic training (or OCS) is keeping your stuff and yourself neat and clean. I've seen people from every walk of life and every intelligence level get it down. There are no excuses for the able bodied. If you're not able bodied, then you're not likely to be living aboard a sailboat.
Amen! It's funny how long that stuff will stay with you. 30 odd years later, I am still uncomfortable with my hands in my pants pockets!
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Old 10-17-2012
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Re: Opposition to liveaboards

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Originally Posted by Hawaiigirl View Post
I want to share something with you guys and I want to know IF you have ever experienced anything like this....We are New to the sailing world and love it....we chose to live aboard our boat for MANY reasons...well...we found this awesome Marina in Fernandina Beach that is run by the city......anyway...they told us the live aboard rate was going to go up $200 a month! Is there opposition to live aboards or is this an isolated case?
Here's my 2 cents worth on this:
First its all about the MONEY!
Second, its all about regulation.
Third its about image.

There is a definite opposition against sailors living on the hook for free because it skirts the MONEY, REGULATION, & IMAGE factors.

I guess it comes down to, money is freedom, freedom is money!
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