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Opposition to liveaboards

41K views 272 replies 50 participants last post by  Ravenhawk 
#1 ·
I want to share something with you guys and I want to know IF you have ever experienced anything like this....We are New to the sailing world and love it....we chose to live aboard our boat for MANY reasons...well...we found this awesome Marina in Fernandina Beach that is run by the city......anyway...they told us the live aboard rate was going to go up $200 a month! Is there opposition to live aboards or is this an isolated case?
 
#65 ·
Sidney, I did not "ATTACK" you, I merely pointed out that marinas DO incur increased expenses from liveaboards. If you read all of this thread, you'll see examples of others having a difference of opinion, and responding to each other, without getting bent out of shape, or feeling that they are being "attacked".
 
#70 · (Edited)
As a liveaboard in a medium size marnia here is south Florida I have seen it all as portrayed by most commentaries here. We have both ends of the spectrum here; ultra rich to those living on a disability check. While my marina does not have many of the amenities that most marinas further north up the east coast have, it is a comfortable living. I have been up and down the Florida Keys where folks live on derelict boats and to be honest eye sores. But I am not one to judge, knowing that those folks are doing the best they can. We have 5 of those boats here in my marina with folks living below poverty income. They are all nice folks. My biggest objection is when those boats are towed out to be abandon in Marine Stadium Bay for the authorities to take care of. There are 3 such boats now out there.
We do provide a service to the marina we live on. The biggest one is security. Even though there are camera's everywhere we have stopped a few thefts over the years I have been here. Second is a set of eyes on the infrastructure of the marina itself. We bring the problems like water breaks, electrical outages, dock repairs and others that would cost the owners of both the marina and boat owners many dollars if not correct early. Also, we watch all the boats especially those around us for problems, like docklines breaking, not tied right, bilge pump running constantly avoiding a boat sinking, AC pump running dry due to blockage and many other problems. We are good neighbors worth our weight in gold.
As far as consuming more resources I don't fully agree. Here in my marina the owners here use more water and electricity than me. In the water department, they get their boat washed every week, run their AC at 65 degrees 24/7, and leave their trash where it doesn't belong. They don't live here hence they don't take care of the facilities like liveaboards do.
Liveaboard is a lifestyle done by choice. No one is holding a gun to our heads to live like we do. We live our dream how most land folks live theirs. It can be a difficult one at times especially when mother nature decides to not be nice or the constant maintenance that is required to maintain our boats.
Marina charges are what the market can bear. It is a Republic Capitalist Society defined by the constitution. If we don't like what they charge, we are lucky we can move, sell the boat or just pay the fee. Some marina owners like us and see the benefit we bring, while others don't. It is their choice not mine. Just like gated communities with HOA rules one has a choice to live there or not. Same with marinas.
 
#80 ·
I have been up and down the Florida Keys where folks live on derelict boats and to be honest eye sores. But I am not one to judge, knowing that those folks are doing the best they can. We have 5 of those boats here in my marina with folks living below poverty income. They are all nice folks.
Many times these days you find those type people still find enough money to smoke cigarettes, drink beer and play lottery or go to the casino. They probably still have a smart phone and flat screen TV.

It's rare in the USA to find a truly broke person. If you want to see real poverty you should travel to Africa or Haiti.

Also it doesn't take much money to keep your boat clean and well organized. Maybe it takes a non-lazy person to carry the trash to the dumpster but not much cash.
 
#75 ·
wingnwing- in reply to your last post about what I tried to post- yea, you pretty much said what I was trying to say when you said only clearer, OK?
And , on the Annapolis thing, I hope to stop in (spa creek anchoring still cool?)
I want to get a real mainsail, hopefully at bacon or one of te other places I've heard of,never been to .
I'm not much of a beer guy but we stock a pretty interesting wine stock- homemeade by the Master Shoemaker I apprenticed for. interesting stuff!
 
#76 ·
Joe - Spa Creek still okay, they're discouraging anchoring just off the Naval Academy seawall but the south side of the mouth there is still fine (though IMHO neither of these is a great anchorage, too exposed to weather from the S and SE.) Further up Spa is more sheltered and no issues. Back Creek is fine anywhere except within 75 ft of a marina structure (not really enforced, unless you're egregiously close). Weems Creek, the Navy moorings are free and very secure. All city streets that end at the water are still free dinghy landings.

It was pretty chilly here last night! Season is definitely changing.
 
#77 · (Edited)
......Back Creek is fine anywhere except within 75 ft of a marina structure (not really enforced, unless you're egregiously close).
Anyone, so naive about their anchor, that would go to sleep a couple of boat lengths from several million dollars of docks and boats, needs their head examined anyway.

It was pretty chilly here last night! Season is definitely changing.
Amen. I'm aboard in RI and it was low 40s last night. Sadly, I'm beginning winterizing.
 
#78 ·
Thanks wingnwing - we've anchored in spa creek before near the park w/ success (long dingy ride) . And I try not to get near any docks and such out of common courtesy. Also our 3 1/2' draft allows us alot of options. Of course if it get's or is looking to get nasty weather wise , a mooring is always an option.
thanks for the info.
what can you tel me about finding a decent pre-enjoyed mainsail ? I hear there are a couple places in Annapolis but have never been to any of them.
 
#82 ·
One of the basic things in basic training (or OCS) is keeping your stuff and yourself neat and clean. I've seen people from every walk of life and every intelligence level get it down. There are no excuses for the able bodied. If you're not able bodied, then you're not likely to be living aboard a sailboat.
 
#85 ·
wing-
" haven't you just taken public property and converted it to your own private benefit.? "
Not at all, not here in the US. While it is possible to "convert" someone else's property to your own, legally, in most or all states, it is not possible to take and convert sovereign property. So first of all, if you are dealing with public property, you can't take it and convert it.
Then there's a matter of difference between anchoring IN public waters while ON public or private bottomland. It is quite common to have public waters, navigable waters, with privately owned bottom land under the water. When a local village, town, county, or state happnes to own the bottom, that bottom may be "public" in the sense that it is set as part of a public commons, or it may be "government property" subject to use according to however the owner has set terms.
That often means "there are oysters on the bottom. You can sail past them, but only residents with an oyster license can take them." Or it can mean "this bottom belongs to the town, and residents are free to moor their boats there, if they pay an annual mooring fee." Almost anything goes.
Taking it and converting it? No, the law says that never happens to sovereign property. Sure, mooring your boat means someone else can't moor there, that's called "sharing". Just like a public water fountain (remember those?) if you stand there and drink all day, no one else can. Do that often enough and the town will pass a "you can only drink for five minutes" rule and then send the sheriff around. (G)
 
#86 ·
...
Taking it and converting it? No, the law says that never happens to sovereign property. Sure, mooring your boat means someone else can't moor there, that's called "sharing". Just like a public water fountain (remember those?) if you stand there and drink all day, no one else can. Do that often enough and the town will pass a "you can only drink for five minutes" rule and then send the sheriff around. (G)
Thanx, that's exactly what I was trying to say. You said it better.
 
#87 ·
In the SF Bay Area, most marinas officially limit liveaboards to 10% of total slips. As I recall, that number is set by statute.
My marina now has a no live aboard policy, though, the parking lot is 25% full every night, and everybody knows there are many live aboards. The electronic gate keys report to the marina office, so they obviously know it as well. In the past,the legal live aboard situation apparently got out of hand with conflicts, and a shanty town type of climate, so the marina banned liveaboards altogether.
The Liveaboard fees mentioned in this thread make me laugh. Most live aboard fees in this area are $500-$600 IN ADDITION to the regular slip fees! Still, very reasonable rent for the bay area, and most marinas have long waiting lists.
Apparently, my marina thinks the hassle of managing the liveaboards is not worth the extra income. The fact that our liveaboards are "illegal" makes them keep a low profile. On the other hand, our docks and facilities still get the added wear and tear that liveaboards cause, without added compensation.
 
#90 ·
Here's my 2 cents worth on this:
First its all about the MONEY!
Second, its all about regulation.
Third its about image.

There is a definite opposition against sailors living on the hook for free because it skirts the MONEY, REGULATION, & IMAGE factors.

I guess it comes down to, money is freedom, freedom is money!
 
#92 ·
That's far from true. The most grizzly ground pounder I've ever known was still unwilling to die. Perhaps they accept they might. Patton said it best, it's better that your enemy dies for their country (paraphrased).

The reason I mentioned military training was only to point out that all education levels, backgrounds, intellects, genders, races, religions, etc, are taught and can learn good hygiene and organization. There was some reference above that it was beyond some people. I fully disagree.
 
#93 ·
In San Diego, I think there are only two spots where you can anchor for free. These are restricted to a night or two, I believe, and you're supposed to get a permit from the Harbor Police. Not really an option for living aboard.

There are several mooring areas, with balls, all around the bay. The same company owns all of them. Some of these are in really excellent locations around the city. They are cheap, too. Only $125 to $150 per month. Unfortunately, there is a ten to fifteen year waiting list to get on one. Most of these boats on them are absolute wrecks that I can't believe even float, and they are not very nice to look at. Apparently, there are no requirements or standards to meet in order keep one of those moorings. It's a shame. I assume people live on some of them, since there are messy signs of life on board and a few with cats. I guess if you got your hands on one of these moorings and something that looks like it used to be a boat, this would be the cheapest way to live in San Diego.

My favorite place to tie up is at the bars that have guest docks right in front, but they won't let me live there...
 
#97 · (Edited)
In San Diego, I think there are only two spots where you can anchor for free. These are restricted to a night or two, I believe, and you're supposed to get a permit from the Harbor Police. Not really an option for living aboard.

There are several mooring areas, with balls, all around the bay. The same company owns all of them. Some of these are in really excellent locations around the city. They are cheap, too. Only $125 to $150 per month. Unfortunately, there is a ten to fifteen year waiting list to get on one. Most of these boats on them are absolute wrecks that I can't believe even float, and they are not very nice to look at. Apparently, there are no requirements or standards to meet in order keep one of those moorings. It's a shame. I assume people live on some of them, since there are messy signs of life on board and a few with cats. I guess if you got your hands on one of these moorings and something that looks like it used to be a boat, this would be the cheapest way to live in San Diego.

My favorite place to tie up is at the bars that have guest docks right in front, but they won't let me live there...
These are the type of moorings I was referring to when I was asking about living aboard on a mooring. I kinda figured that there are these types, possibly owned by marinas, to be found about anywhere. When marinas move boats to moorings during storm conditions wouldn't they need to own the moorings in order to do that?

Keeping on topic with the OP, I get a picture based on all the comments so far that any opposition stems from derelict and/or trashy boats presenting an eyesore. That reasoning, at least to me, seems more like a symptom rather than a cause. I admit that I only have experience with 2 marinas but both presented me with a set of rules to follow that included statements that said my boat must be kept in a sightly manner (I'm paraphrasing here). Both were quite specific on what was and was not allowed to be kept on the docks. If people allow their boat to fall into such a state, and I acknowledge the difference between dusty/dirty from less than frequent visits from owners and filthy/trashy from abandoned or uncaring owners, then it would fall to marina management to enforce the rules they establish. It really gives the appearance of business's being frustrated from their own inaction and trying to avoid the situation entirely rather than having to face the unpleasant task of telling someone to clean up their mess or get out. Some on this forum may own or manage a marina so chime in on this. Is this the case? Is it difficult to impossible to actually get rid of these derelict boats? Are there no laws that address these types of problems or is it a matter that nobody wants to enforce them? I really don't see why living aboard at any marina has to be a problem other than the envy from non-boaters which was mentioned by another poster, in which case I think that it would be a form of discrimination.
 
#96 ·
We are former RV people...we traveled for years...I remember going to one RV park that had a nice pool...lured you in but really did not want you to us it....that is the way the city marina was in Fernandina...a real uppity attitude and for what reason I have no clue...it was near a paper mill that stunk...the marsh was stinky...homeless people were hanging around...there was no security...unruly children skateboarded and road their bicycles on the dock...the $200 extra to chase us off was GREAT...we have found a much much nicer place...come to find out Accounting found they could making MORE money off of transients...so it was definitely a money thing...no different than RV parks...when it is busy season they do not want you...when it is slow season they LOVE you...ha ha!
 
#99 ·
I'm not saying all. I'm sure some of them are in fine shape, I just haven't seen them. You're right, though, the worst of them seem to be right along the sidewalk around the bay. Or at least, they look like the worst because you can see them so closely. However, I sail all over the bay, although I don't often go inward of the bridge, and there are many floating wrecks in the other mooring areas as well.

Maybe it's just those nasty ones that stick out in my memory...

If those were brought over from the free anchorage that closed, who is paying the mooring fees?
 
#103 ·
I'm part of a small group that owns 3 homes here in the California Delta.. two of those homes have their own docks and Liveaboards are strictly forbidden.. And we live on our boat.. we do allow friends to visit with their boat but only for a max of two weeks..
we've found that anytime a liveaboard is allowed, we have issues we dont want to deal with..
one major issue is the build up of items on the dock, from dock boxes to bicycles and if not left at the dock, are at the enterance to the dock..
and people, its not as much the people that live there but the people that visit and those they bring with them.
A year or so ago, we had leased out the house to one couple and the dock to another..
they have a nice boat, clean, respectable, and had insurance.. shortly after they moved in, their little chairs and a table appeared on the dock, bicycles, and a dock box.. then you would see a large folding table on the dock with his tools out when he was working on the boat. and then I stopped in one dfay, he had his car up on jackstands and was working under it.. when I asked him what he was doing, he said he was replacing the starter..
and he go pissed off when I brought it to his attention that he wasnt to do that there..
and further upset when I asked him to clear the docks of his stuff..
now people ask me why I dont allow liveaboards...
Its because your boat is your home, and everything you would be doing in and around your home, you are now doing in and around your boat.. from working on your car to storing you bikes..
and again we live on our boat,
the fact is, I would not rent our dock to someone like myself.. next to my steps are an old battery I need to get rid of, two propane tanks, and a powerwasher.. and my bicycles.. theses are things I wouldnt allow On my own dock..
and I think the biggest issue... I dont even want to confront anyone about the crap left on the dock..
so at the home we own, we've found it easier to lease the dock to someone who only visits the dock on weekends.. and they know that if anything is on the docks over the weekend, its cleaned up on sunday when they leave..
 
#122 · (Edited)
Hi Randy. Your situation is a little unique in my opinion since it sounds like you are a private owner who rents or leases your docks. It seems that in your case, there is no opportunity for word of mouth, peer pressure, or even an opportunity to "do as the Romans do". If the person leasing your dock is the only occupant, in my experience anyway, that person will push the limits until they find the boundary so to speak. In a marina setting, at least from my limited experience, each slip occupant is surrounded by many other occupants. Each signs a paper stating that they received, read, understand, and will comply with a set of rules that cover all of the things you mentioned. With so many tenants, word gets around (word of mouth) that the marina enforces the rules. As people become acquainted with their neighbors, they tend to respect each other and try to be considerate (peer pressure). To be frank about it, I've had vehicle problems myself and have fixed starters, electical problems, swapped batteries and even tires wherever my vehicle was parked at the time, mainly because if I had to pay for a tow I probably wouldnt have the money to buy the part I needed. No business has ever hassled me about it. At the last marina I was in, they did not have a problem with people working on their vehicles in such a situation, just as they didn't mind, and were even helpful, with people who needed to do maintenance on their boats.

You said you had a problem with a tenant who was doing exactly the same thing you are doing and wouldn't even rent to yourself. I'm really curious to know why that is? I totally respect your honesty about it and I don't mean this in an antagonistic way, but doesn't that strike you as being a little hypocritical? If the guys starter went out what is really the problem with letting him fix it? When my prop shaft broke and the nearest haulout was over 20 miles away, the marina owner actually got involved with the problem. He suggested towing it as close to the boat ramp as possible and either renting a boom truck or maybe some float bags to raise the stern high enough to get the shaft out of the water. He even offered me the free use of his jonboat to tow it. Several of my powerboat neighbors even offerred to help. It was like a community effort and everybody wanted to pitch in. That is one of the reasons I look forward to the day when I can get into thee lifestyle for good. In my opinion, we need more business owners who understand their customers needs. I'm all for setting a standard and holding people to it but I also think people have to have some common sense and know when to give a little.
 
#104 ·
Randy, you bascially make no point relevant to liveaboards and boats. Except to say that a home is a home, and if someone has to abide by terms dictated by their landlord or their HOA or some other party who restricts the resident's rights--then there can be conflicts.

No working on the starter? No picnic table? Gee, most MOAs won't let you put up a clothesline to dry your laundry, either.

The boat has got nothing to do with it. You just want to rent your property on your own terms, and as the owner, you're entitled to do that. I hope you pick your house tenants better than your dock tenants though, because you never know when some unreasonable sneaky tenant is going to do some damn fool thing that hang up a sheet to dry. Or heaven's forbid, wash their car.
 
#107 ·
Randy, you bascially make no point relevant to liveaboards and boats.
I think I made my point very clear.. I own a dock on a waterway and will not lease to liveaboards due to the reasons I stated.. and I'm sure many marinas have the same attitude as I.
and further to note that its not a jealousy item as I live on my boat and still wont rent or lease to liveaboards..
 
#106 ·
Minne, there's a difference between owning your land free and simple, and being subject to an HOA or condo association. Yes, I do know people who were given hundred dollars fines for washing their car. Or parking next to their kitchen to unload groceries. Or, heaven forbid, putting up a clothesline.

And don't even think of parking nose-out (safer, proven by statistics) instead of nose-in, when that's also required.

I'd never buy into one of those heavy-restricted deed arrangements, but they are far and wide the most popular thing in the country and in some places, you'd be hard pressed to find "just a plain title" available anymore.

You buy into one of these "communities" and you see your neighbor washing his car...No, it is no surprise, but then you call the HOA and report it. As you're expected to do.

Nice way to live, huh? Keeps the riff-raff like you and me out, too.
 
#108 ·
Weird. I'm a liveaboard and have never kept anything on the dock. Why risk it being stolen? I don't work on my car either. I was never allowed to do that at an apartment, why would I be allowed to do that at a slip I'm renting?

The only "messy" things is in the summer I keep a tarp up on the boat and my car hatchback is packed full because I use my car to store a few things(like my fold up bicycle). But I keep that covered with a blanket because, again, I don't want anyone to break into my car to steal it.
 
#110 ·
"I think I made my point very clear.."
You did, but think about what you said. Your problem is with TENANTS not with liveaboards. In your case the tenants happen to be living on boats so they happen to be liveaboards, but that's coincidental. The crux of your complaint is that your TENANTS are not abiding by your rules.

Whether they are tenants on a boat, in a shotgun flat, in a luxury condo tower, or the gatehouse of your mansion, your complaint is still about TENANTS who won't follow your rules.

Or, did you just not mention that you only expect tenants on BOATS to follow your rules, that if you had rented a house to them and said "Can't work on cars on the lawn!" it would be OK if they didn't follow your rules, because they were in a house instead of a boat?
 
#111 ·
"I think I made my point very clear.."
You did, but think about what you said. Your problem is with TENANTS not with liveaboards.
Not trying to cause an argument here but arnt they the same.. If a tenant moves onto my dock with his boat, and he lives aboard, he is infact a liveaboard on his boat and renting a space on my dock?
he is a liveaboard but he is also a tenant..
Im not renting the boat to him, just the space to put his boat..
 
#112 ·
In BC ,those who put out moorings have no legal rights to them. I simply pick up any mooring I find, give her a good shot of reverse, and if it holds, use it. If no one gives me any problem , I feel a bit of an obligation to clean a bit of the growth off it, and,if I plan to use it again, I put some reflector tape on it, so I can find it easily at night, thus leaving it in better condition than I found it in.

If the owner tries to hassle me, I tell him to get lost ,and ignore him.
You can tell when it was last used, by the amount of growth on it, especially the pickup line
 
#113 ·
"In BC ,those who put out moorings have no legal rights to them."
How very curious, and contrary to our common British common-law heritage. Here in the US if you "find" something that belongs to someone else, perhaps a tent that has been left pitched in the woods, it still belongs to the original owner and if you don't get out when he asks you, you've escalated the class of trespassing charge. If you pick it up and say "I found it, finder's keepers" that doesn't apply either. Over a certain low dollar value, there's laws about that too.

Methinks the Mounties might disagree with you, Brett. Along with some other folks with official mandates.
 
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