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  #81  
Old 11-26-2012
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Re: Starrett-Jenks Morgan45 info-opinions

Thanks for your reply Azi. Well... we moved ahead after completing a thorough survey and purchased the 1978 Morgan Starratt 45. !!!! The survey found a healthy list of mostly minor stuff with the major "gotcha" issue from the survey being the standing rigging. The prior owners gave her a lot of love and good upgrades for her since 2009 including a new Yanmar 75hp engine, new prop, shaft, all new electronics, completely rebuilt rudder and more. On haul out she looked really beautiful. So, eyes open about her love to sail heeled over but solid and smooth were hoping to get her blue water cruising in a few years. For now the SF Bay and relatively local journeys as we get to know her and check-off mostly live-aboard type of projects on her and save the money to redo the rigging (and save for time away.) Wondering what size jib you bought for yours and if you use jib track or a series of snatch blocks on the toe rails? Ours has no jib track, only staysail track. Jib is on a furler. (Also there's a preventer.) The main on ours looks good but jib is only 110. Not much sail inventory either, just a storm sail. We see a halyard up top of the mast but doesn't seem to lead outside the forestay. Any ideas about what that might be for? Also we have a nice dodger and enclosed Bimini - great for those many cold windy days on the Bay. ;-)

JudyM
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  #82  
Old 11-26-2012
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Cool Re: Starrett-Jenks Morgan45 info-opinions

Just returned from some work on ORION -- installed hawse pipes and ancjhor rode reel winches. I'd like to post pictures but haven't figured out how to do it.

Judy, are you in San Francisco Bay?

Azi: You have repeated an oft misunderstood myth about waterline and heeling. Don't feel bad -- even the magazine writers usually get this wrong. The one exception I remember is "Lee Helm" in Latitude 38 who explained it correctly. As follows, more or less. The overhangs are there because they do let the effective waterline get longer as they are immersed, HOWEVER, it is NOTdue to HEEL. Indeed if you heel any of the kind of boats we are talking about in still water and at rest, the waterline gets Shorter as the relatively stiff bilge is immersed. What actually happens is due to wavemaking and speed through the water. When a boat is moving at close to hull speed (1.4*sqrt(Lwl)) it creates a wave system with a deep trough about midships, crests at bow and stern. As a boat with long overhangs settles into this depression the effective waterline length increases because the long ends are now riding on the bow and stern waves. In our IOD, for example, the transom at the end of the counter is about two feet above the water and about five feet abaft the end of the resting Lwl. But at speed the transom is at the waterline and the whole of the counter overhang has become part of the submerged body of the boat. Same at the bow but to a lesser extent. The displacement remains the same because the midsection is no longer immersed as deeply due to the depression or trough of the induced wave.

To put it another way, the motion of the boat throught the water cuses the water surface to become bent in the region of the boat. A boat with long overhangs is designed to have a long and optimal form when sailing on this bent surface.

It has nothing to do with heel (except that sailboats generally do heel, when going fast,) the same thin happens going dead downwind with little or no heel.

OK, sorry for the rant -- I just would like to get the sailing community to get this right.
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  #83  
Old 11-27-2012
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Re: Starrett-Jenks Morgan45 info-opinions

JudyM
We have a spare jib halyard on Enchantress. That may be what you have. On the jib I would think that given the winds in SF bay a 110 would be fine. We sail with the 110 and a full or single-reefed main and get good speed. We have a 135 which we have used in light winds here in the Chesapeake. But we got gennaker we use instead as it doesn't have to be attached to the forestay. Storm sails also came with the boat but look like they've never been used.
We use snatch blocks on each the toe rail. Seems to work just fine. If I were still racing I would have put in tracks but as I'm not...
We had a new dodger and bimini made but to protect from the sun and heat rather than the cold.
Your boat sounds great. What will you call her
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  #84  
Old 11-27-2012
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Re: Starrett-Jenks Morgan45 info-opinions

Kerforion,
Thanks. I rally am glad to get a good explanation. Just repeared what I had read and been told but I always wondered.
Azi
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  #85  
Old 11-27-2012
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Re: Starrett-Jenks Morgan45 info-opinions

Yes, San Francisco Bay. Home Port is now Sausalito. Her name is now "Juju" I'll try to post some pics.

Hmmm, interesting. I'd read and heard that the Morgan - Starratt was best sailed with a big foresail, and something close to 135 or 150 jib and first reef the main before jib. We will certainly work with what we've got for a while before buying. Do you use one or two snatch boxes per side rail? Curious our running rigging has no jib track but a project to add one and we're not racing her either. Obviously not sailed her yet... But seems with a big jib, snatch box on toe rail makes sense but with smaller jib may want a more inner track?

Very interesting to read about design intention of overhang and swl to oal ratio. Never heard that either. So the net impact of the design is for optimal flow thru on the resulting action of the waves as sailing? Does this result in more comfort (or less) or was it focused on speed? Why then did the design theory become so phased out then?

Thanks!
Judy
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Old 11-27-2012
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Re: Starrett-Jenks Morgan45 info-opinions

JudyM
It may be that your rig is idfferent than mine. Enchantress has a big main and we've found that with the main and the 135 genoa up in the 10-15 kt winds we usually get, Enchantress will lay right over when we're on the wind. We don't go any faster, we just get wetter. Generally with the main and 110 we get 7 to 8 kts on the wind at about a 20 degree angle of heel which is what we like. On a beam reach in 15+ kts we've had her up over 10 kts. Actually took a reef in the main without affecting the speed. In light winds we furl the jib and use the gennaker. If the wind isn't going where we want, we go somewhere else.
We use two blocks on the toe rail. The beam is so narrow for our 46-ft boats that I didn't think it really needed an inside track.
You'll find that Juju's long narrow hull is very easily driven through the water in all but the lightest winds. You'll also find that the full keel keeps you on course when you're off the wind.
Once you customize Juju (that does never really end) you'll have a boat you'll really love with the added bonus of being one of the really classy looking boats around.
Just one added thing, Enchantress came with really good inner-spring mattresses for the forward and quarter berths. I don't know if Juju came with them, but if she didn't somewhere down the line you should think about getting them. They really make a difference.
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  #87  
Old 11-28-2012
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Re: Starrett-Jenks Morgan45 info-opinions

Azi,
Ah, so ours must be a second jib halyard but we also have a furler jib. Also we just found out there are more sails to be included with Juju from prior owner; We will look and see if one is assymetrical spinnaker/gennaker for light winded days. Perhaps you mean asymmetrical spinnaker instead of gennaker? Our boat also came with spinnaker pole, therefore we assume any other halyard to top of mast would be for spinnaker but this line on ours appears to exit top of mast, parallel to top of forestay, and not above it, which would not allow the asymmetrical spinnaker to clear the top of the forestay when moving to the other side. Did you do some adjusting to get your halyard line to not chafe? Is your line above the forestay or do you just let it ride over the forestay?

Keforian,
Read some of Lee Helm's letters on this topic in latitude 38 but never totally got it. Thanks for that explanation. Always great to get more info and understanding on why our boat is designed the way she is. So she picks up in speed not because she's heeled over but because as boat moves thru water the double wave pattern results in more of the hull in the water. How does this design impact comfort of ride at maximum hull speed? Is she moving faster in a less "lopey"way due to the overhang design too?

Best,
J
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  #88  
Old 11-28-2012
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Re: Starrett-Jenks Morgan45 info-opinions

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  #89  
Old 12-03-2012
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Re: Starrett-Jenks Morgan45 info-opinions

Judy:

As to the effect of this sort of design on ease of motion in a seaway I will have to defer to those real sailors with more experience than me. In theory, I would say yes. Because the hull form does not change abruptly at the waterline, it's behavior in varying conditions of submersion, pitch, roll (heel), even overloading, stays much the same. The Prismatic coefficient does not change much. In mathematical terms the immersed volume is 'self-similar' regardless of orientation.

As to why modern NAs design what they do, I can only speculate -- following a fashion trend mostly? The adoption of the CCA rule, followed by IOR and on and on did not help as it heavily penalized overhangs by including in the rated length the measurement of another waterline length some distance above the actual Lwl. Thus the nearly plumb bows and flat transoms of the Cal 40 and her ilk.

I could go on but this is not the place for a rant about yacht design.

Just enjoy yours -- she is one among the very best ever.
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  #90  
Old 12-04-2012
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Re: Starrett-Jenks Morgan45 info-opinions

Summer is over... time to make the springtime list for changes and mods.
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