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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Sailboat Design and Construction > Multihull
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  #131  
Old 03-14-2014
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Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
wait... could it be that all of your references are multis?
very clever - you support your boat by saying that other cats are as heavy as yours.... ?
displacement is not weight.
it is...

The displacement of a vessel is equal to the weight of water it displaces when afloat.

It is not a boat's "weight"
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  #132  
Old 03-14-2014
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Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
......... I had asked earlier in this thread about storm tactics for multi hulls. Would you or others care to offer comments. I know with my high aspect keel and balanced rudder my first line of defense is fore reaching then the series drogue comes out. Hoving too just doesn't work well without a lot of tuning.I had wondered if like tactics with mono hull have changed with transition away from full keel boats has tactics changed now we see the current generation of multi flyers so different than the prout39 s of the past?
So far the only decent survival strategy for a cat caught in dangerous seas is to lie to a drogue ( sea anchor) streamed on a bridle from the bows until the seas abate. That's because the diagonal pitchpole induced inversion is the cats most significant vulnerability. Secondary are beam seas.

As cats get more performance oriented , lighter and with less buoyancy in the bow the risk goes up significantly.
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  #133  
Old 03-14-2014
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Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

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Originally Posted by TropicCat View Post
The displacement of a vessel is equal to the weight of water it displaces when afloat.

It is not a boat's "weight"
it is OK...
you have proven your "knowledge" - thank you!
i suggest that you should do some homework in physics...
Quote:
This post is in error. "....The Catalac was DELIBERATELY rammed and sunk. This was at the insistence of the owners wife who believed that the storm was some sort of intergalactic struggle between the forces of good and evil. She wrote a book about the incident which was, errr, interesting reading! The boat had been doing pretty well in the hands of folks who were seriously lacking in experience and good judgement...."

She survived the storm just fine.
it was rammed deliberately?
couldn't get rid of the boat soon enough - eh?
if she sank, she did not survive... and nobody could tell if she would have.
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Last edited by capt vimes; 03-14-2014 at 07:51 AM.
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  #134  
Old 03-14-2014
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Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

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Originally Posted by TropicCat View Post
The displacement of a vessel is equal to the weight of water it displaces when afloat.

It is not a boat's "weight"
It's correct to say that the boats weight is equal to it's displacement.

Displacement can be taken as either the volume or the weight of the water the hull displaces. The weight of the water displaced is always equal to the weight of the vessel. The volume depends on the mass of the water which in turn depends on temp and salinity. But the weights are always the same.
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  #135  
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Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

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Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
ÖÖÖ..Pitch Polling. I don't buy the whole "cat is going to flip" business. I am not saying that is not possible, but come on! We are talking a very rare occurrence. I would love to compare that to the number of monos that hole themselves on a reef due to their draft or the number of broken ribs or serious sea sickness that a mono can give. I think I will take my chances................ Brian

Pitchpoling and inversion occur in heavy weather, they are not common but common enough to start to show some disturbing trends. We should look at why they are not common. For example itís not common for Pedalboats be sunk by North Atlantic winter storms People may choose to believe the risk is low because the frequency of disaster is low. That can give false confidence and lead to poor decisions.

The reason inversion should be treated so seriously is that fatalities from rough weather inversion are very high with catamarans. The hull is untenable as a survival platform and emergency equipment is unreachable. The risk is extreme by any sensible risk assessment.

There is some very poorly informed comment that you can sit on the hull of am inverted cat and wait for rescue . Itís touted as one of the attributes of undamaged cats when comparing them to damaged monohulls ! But not only is that an invalid comparison but itís also not sensible to consider cats as survival platforms in rough seas. There is a very high death rate from inverted catamarans in heavy weather. Thatís due to several major problems with the inverted cat and itís instant transition to a flooded almost completely inaccessible wreck.

It's an alarming emerging trend that the majority of people aboard cats in heavy weather inversions die. The dead are not here to passionately put their side of the story and the living often donít want to know, or want to rationalize the risks away. There is a multihull subculture that refuses to accept that their chosen craft have problems. Problems are due to a particularly bad boat or the fault of the operator.

A comparison of a cat and a mono should consider both price and size. Iíd suggest that a fair comparison for cost and materials is between cat and a monohull thatís at least 10 feet longer on the waterline. So for example compare a 45 foot Cat with a 56 foot mark cruising monohull and then look at stability, comfort, watertight subdivision, passage speed, storage room and the overall feel of the boat as a home. Then start to juggle the other compromises. Youíll find it doesnít matter all that much which boat you chose if they fit the operational area criteria. But you can improve your chances with a good choice that matches your cruising style.
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  #136  
Old 03-14-2014
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Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

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Originally Posted by MikeJohns View Post
It's an alarming emerging trend that the majority of people aboard cats in heavy weather inversions die.
Please cite your references for this assertion.
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  #137  
Old 03-14-2014
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Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

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Originally Posted by MikeJohns View Post
Pitchpoling and inversion occur in heavy weather, they are not common but common enough to start to show some disturbing trends. We should look at why they are not common. For example itís not common for Pedalboats be sunk by North Atlantic winter storms People may choose to believe the risk is low because the frequency of disaster is low. That can give false confidence and lead to poor decisions.

The reason inversion should be treated so seriously is that fatalities from rough weather inversion are very high with catamarans. The hull is untenable as a survival platform and emergency equipment is unreachable. The risk is extreme by any sensible risk assessment.

There is some very poorly informed comment that you can sit on the hull of am inverted cat and wait for rescue . Itís touted as one of the attributes of undamaged cats when comparing them to damaged monohulls ! But not only is that an invalid comparison but itís also not sensible to consider cats as survival platforms in rough seas. There is a very high death rate from inverted catamarans in heavy weather. Thatís due to several major problems with the inverted cat and itís instant transition to a flooded almost completely inaccessible wreck.

It's an alarming emerging trend that the majority of people aboard cats in heavy weather inversions die. The dead are not here to passionately put their side of the story and the living often donít want to know, or want to rationalize the risks away. There is a multihull subculture that refuses to accept that their chosen craft have problems. Problems are due to a particularly bad boat or the fault of the operator.

A comparison of a cat and a mono should consider both price and size. Iíd suggest that a fair comparison for cost and materials is between cat and a monohull thatís at least 10 feet longer on the waterline. So for example compare a 45 foot Cat with a 56 foot mark cruising monohull and then look at stability, comfort, watertight subdivision, passage speed, storage room and the overall feel of the boat as a home. Then start to juggle the other compromises. Youíll find it doesnít matter all that much which boat you chose if they fit the operational area criteria. But you can improve your chances with a good choice that matches your cruising style.
Since monohulls have the same chance of sinking as cats do flipping which would you rather be on? Plenty of people have been rescued of inverted cats, it makes for a great news story. The still floating cat also gives rescuers a visual to start their search, not the same with a sunk mono. Crews of inverted cats have been known to retrieve stores of their boats, not the same with sunk monos. Crews on cats have tied their liferafts of to the inverted boat with a long line, try that on a sinking mono!
If there was such a big risk of a cat flipping and lives being lost why do insurance companies consider cats to be an equal or better risk than a mono. Surely of all people they would know the risks?
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  #138  
Old 03-14-2014
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Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

[QUOTE=capt vimes;1624962]it is OK...
you have proven your "knowledge" - thank you!
i suggest that you should do some homework in physics...
QUOTE]

You all are hysterical, correcting each other without actually looking up the answer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_(ship)

a. The displacment of a boat in tons, using the kind of common sense definition you are using is ALWAYS the exact wieght. It could not be otherwise, and so it's simpler to just refer to the weight.

b. Displacement, as any sailor uses the term, refers to the maximum design weight, with slight differences in how folks define that. In priciple, a cruising boat should always be well under its rated displacement, except for the day it departs on passage. The difference between dry wieght and displacement is carrying capacity.
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  #139  
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Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

[QUOTE=smj;1625146]If there was such a big risk of a cat flipping and lives being lost why do insurance companies consider cats to be an equal or better risk than a mono. Surely of all people they would know the risks?[/QUOTE

Aside from all passionate arguments, they reduce it to facts. Imagine that.

Or it could be as simple as dock-side sinkings. Perhaps cats are less likely to sink in the harbor, and that is really the insurers greatest risk.
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  #140  
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Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
You all are hysterical, correcting each other without actually looking up the answer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_(ship)

a. The displacment of a boat in tons, using the kind of common sense definition you are using is ALWAYS the exact wieght. It could not be otherwise, and so it's simpler to just refer to the weight.

b. Displacement, as any sailor uses the term, refers to the maximum design weight, with slight differences in how folks define that. In priciple, a cruising boat should always be well under its rated displacement, except for the day it departs on passage. The difference between dry wieght and displacement is carrying capacity.
look - i know all that, but thank you...

what you very often find is the displacement given to the DWL (Design Waterline) which will be somewhere between light- (no loads, boat weight alone) and full displacement (heavy loaded to the maximum)
"Displ to DWL 4750kg (10470lb)" these figures are actually from a 40 foot plywood epoxy monohull for home built with 2000 kg ballast...
Didi 40cr radius chine plywood sailboat
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