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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Sailboat Design and Construction > Multihull
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  #191  
Old 03-16-2014
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Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

smj- looked at your public profile and it doesn't say what's your beauty. Fully agree both recent mono hulls and multi hulls are not designed to make one feel secure they would survive in stormy conditions. The increasing use of hull windows (old school "lights") absence of effective drop boards, opportunities for down flooding with companion ways level to cockpits, poor anti siphoning and such are increasingly incorporated in both types of boats. Some say with proper materials and design ( multi layer tempered glass for hull lights etc.) a strong boat can be made with allowing for these recent trends. I wonder what features you would look at in multi hulls contemplating voyaging?
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  #192  
Old 03-16-2014
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One thing I like about some current designs are the swinging comoanionway doors vs. Hatch boards. Being able to seal off the comoanionway in a pinch is a great feature. I wonder about all of the Windows also, but I think they are significantly stronger than they seem. I also wonder about having to rebed them.

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Originally Posted by outbound:1633865
smj- looked at your public profile and it doesn't say what's your beauty. Fully agree both recent mono hulls and multi hulls are not designed to make one feel secure they would survive in stormy conditions. The increasing use of hull windows (old school "lights") absence of effective drop boards, opportunities for down flooding with companion ways level to cockpits, poor anti siphoning and such are increasingly incorporated in both types of boats. Some say with proper materials and design ( multi layer tempered glass for hull lights etc.) a strong boat can be made with allowing for these recent trends. I wonder what features you would look at in multi hulls contemplating voyaging?
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  #193  
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Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
smj- looked at your public profile and it doesn't say what's your beauty. Fully agree both recent mono hulls and multi hulls are not designed to make one feel secure they would survive in stormy conditions. The increasing use of hull windows (old school "lights") absence of effective drop boards, opportunities for down flooding with companion ways level to cockpits, poor anti siphoning and such are increasingly incorporated in both types of boats. Some say with proper materials and design ( multi layer tempered glass for hull lights etc.) a strong boat can be made with allowing for these recent trends. I wonder what features you would look at in multi hulls contemplating voyaging?
We are boat less at the moment but have a contract on a Crowther Spindrift 37. Hopefully we will be boat owners again soon.
I would like to see daggerboards, really good bridge deck clearance, strong smaller companionway, low profile, smallish windows, slim hulls for performance and a reliable steering system that has an easy backup, tillers. I personally like to have as few thru hulls as possible. One of the reasons I like composting heads and outboards. And something simple. The problem with low profile and high bridgedeck clearance is it limits headroom in the smaller boats.
What I don't care for is the fly bridge steering station. Plenty have crossed oceans but it really raises you center of gravity. Also puts the sail area up high which to me isn't a good idea.
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  #194  
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Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

I'd still like to know where you got the statistics you posted earlier about sinking and inversion. And how meaningful they really were if you separated out the types of craft specifically of interest. But if you just pulled it from another site its likely that its just someone’s opinion doing the rounds. Like other invalid arguments that get endlessly circulated in the multi-hull ‘community’.

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In the Queens Birthday storm in the early nineties none of the cats flipped but most of the monos either got knocked down or rolled.
This is a total fallacy as you should now be aware. The majority of the monos had no problem, go back and read this post; How do you feel about catamarans? and read the posts afterwards. You can check the facts yourself looking at the links others provided. The pro multihull arguments based on this incident are typically disingenuous.

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Another example would be on our first catamaran. We had a strong storm come in while at anchor with initial gusts of 90kts. When the storm came in a good percentage of the monos were knocked down to 90 degrees where our catamaran stayed anchored directly in the wind.
What sort of boats were knocked down? If you do a beam wind heeling study for bare poles in those sorts of conditions you'll get around 45 degrees for worst of the small light boats to around 15 degrees or better for the boats over 50 feet. At least for any sensible crusing design.
It’s not even sensible to suggest 90 degrees since the wind heeling moment is close to zero at that and the RM is maximum.

If you want sensible informative comparisons compare well found crusing boats comparable to the cat, I suggested before that will be a cruising monohull of at least 10 feet longer on the waterline.

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........ What I'm saying is that a good seaworthy cat is just as seaworthy as a good seaworthy mono.
Based on what ? …… Under what conditions, for what boat, for what usage, at what time of year, with what rescue response? The statement is far too general. It's certainly not valid for every scenario there are several conditions in which cats are considerably more dangerous to be aboard ie the risk is extreme.

I’ll reiterate that there is a very disturbing trend of a high fatality rate for cats inverted in heavy weather, even close to rescue services.
It would be more sensible to adopt strategies that improve your chances of survival and take them seriously than try and spin the problems into obscurity with fudged statistics exaggerating benefits and downplayed risks. Multihull sites and marketers are rife with disingenuous arguments and hype. These are the ‘facts’ that get circulated and posted on threads like this.
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  #195  
Old 03-16-2014
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Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - News Article

I'm sure if you searched you could find many other articles with the same story.
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  #196  
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Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJohns View Post
I'd still like to know where you got the statistics you posted earlier about sinking and inversion. And how meaningful they really were if you separated out the types of craft specifically of interest. But if you just pulled it from another site its likely that its just someone’s opinion doing the rounds. Like other invalid arguments that get endlessly circulated in the multi-hull ‘community’.



This is a total fallacy as you should now be aware. The majority of the monos had no problem, go back and read this post; How do you feel about catamarans? and read the posts afterwards. You can check the facts yourself looking at the links others provided. The pro multihull arguments based on this incident are typically disingenuous.



What sort of boats were knocked down? If you do a beam wind heeling study for bare poles in those sorts of conditions you'll get around 45 degrees for worst of the small light boats to around 15 degrees or better for the boats over 50 feet. At least for any sensible crusing design.
It’s not even sensible to suggest 90 degrees since the wind heeling moment is close to zero at that and the RM is maximum.

If you want sensible informative comparisons compare well found crusing boats comparable to the cat, I suggested before that will be a cruising monohull of at least 10 feet longer on the waterline.



Based on what ? …… Under what conditions, for what boat, for what usage, at what time of year, with what rescue response? The statement is far too general. It's certainly not valid for every scenario there are several conditions in which cats are considerably more dangerous to be aboard ie the risk is extreme.

I’ll reiterate that there is a very disturbing trend of a high fatality rate for cats inverted in heavy weather, even close to rescue services.
It would be more sensible to adopt strategies that improve your chances of survival and take them seriously than try and spin the problems into obscurity with fudged statistics exaggerating benefits and downplayed risks. Multihull sites and marketers are rife with disingenuous arguments and hype. These are the ‘facts’ that get circulated and posted on threads like this.
There were many monos knocked down. I don't recall the exact brand or length as I was to busy tending our 32' catamaran and hopefully not dragging into the steel trawler behind us.
How about some stats from you? Show me some stats showing the high fatality rates for cats inverted in heavy weather. Obviously you have a distaste for cats. Please tell me your experience sailing them. I've sailed both cats and monos and prefer cats but I don't have anything against monos. I realize the positive and negative aspects of both.
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  #197  
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Are you suggesting that monohulls flying bare poles dont get knocked down? The big worry in these storms are large breaking waves, not so much the wind.

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Originally Posted by MikeJohns:1635601
What sort of boats were knocked down? If you do a beam wind heeling study for bare poles in those sorts of conditions you'll get around 45 degrees for worst of the small light boats to around 15 degrees or better for the boats over 50 feet. At least for any sensible crusing design.
It’s not even sensible to suggest 90 degrees since the wind heeling moment is close to zero at that and the RM is maximum.
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  #198  
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Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

MikeJohns, you believe your study's that pop up on your computer screen and I'll believe what I've seen through some very scared eyes.
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Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

I might also look through some very scary eyes if being trapped on a multi in heavy seas...
I absolutely understand you.
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Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

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I might also look through some very scary eyes if being trapped on a multi in heavy seas...
I absolutely understand you.
Can't get anything by you Actually I was scared one of those damn monos was going to roll there mast into my boat!

Last edited by smj; 03-16-2014 at 10:20 PM.
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