How do you feel about catamarans? - Page 26 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Sailboat Design and Construction > Multihull
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree120Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #251  
Old 03-19-2014
manatee's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: S.E. Florida
Posts: 896
Thanks: 16
Thanked 70 Times in 60 Posts
Rep Power: 2
manatee is on a distinguished road
Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

<img src="http://www.robertsonandcaine.com/images/leopards/l48/sailing2.jpg">

Every time I see one of these no-transom designs, mono or multi, going down the ICW, it reminds me of that old commercial for the AMC Gremlin, in which the gas station attendant looks at the car and says to the driver, "Where's the rest of your car, toots?" -- they look incomplete.

Racing boats are *not* discussed in this post -- they are a whole different class of critters -- I'm talking about cruising boats.

Good enough for marina-to-marina cruising, maybe, but not open water, where the wind can back 90 degrees and rise to 50 knots in no time, whipping up a cross-sea that has the Ocean standing on her hind legs and blowing the tops off whitecaps. I would not feel comfortable further from shore than I could swim back to in one of these "unfinished" boats.

I see where hybrids are available (on monos), with drop-in boards & station-wagon-like tailgates. If engineered strongly & simply enough, they could be the best of both designs. Don't see anything like that to fix the 'back porch' look of the multis. Yet.
__________________
===========================
*
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
*
===========================

"The skipper should be the calmest person on board.
It is good for the morale of those around you. However, if everyone around you is frightened then be aware of the possibility that they know something you donít."

~~Dylan Winter,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #252  
Old 03-19-2014
smj smj is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 98
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 6
smj is on a distinguished road
Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by manatee View Post
<img src="http://www.robertsonandcaine.com/images/leopards/l48/sailing2.jpg">

Every time I see one of these no-transom designs, mono or multi, going down the ICW, it reminds me of that old commercial for the AMC Gremlin, in which the gas station attendant looks at the car and says to the driver, "Where's the rest of your car, toots?" -- they look incomplete.

Racing boats are *not* discussed in this post -- they are a whole different class of critters -- I'm talking about cruising boats.

Good enough for marina-to-marina cruising, maybe, but not open water, where the wind can back 90 degrees and rise to 50 knots in no time, whipping up a cross-sea that has the Ocean standing on her hind legs and blowing the tops off whitecaps. I would not feel comfortable further from shore than I could swim back to in one of these "unfinished" boats.

I see where hybrids are available (on monos), with drop-in boards & station-wagon-like tailgates. If engineered strongly & simply enough, they could be the best of both designs. Don't see anything like that to fix the 'back porch' look of the multis. Yet.
Positive aspect is you wouldn't have to worry about the cockpit draining!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #253  
Old 03-19-2014
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hobart
Posts: 80
Thanks: 4
Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts
Rep Power: 7
MikeJohns is on a distinguished road
Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Multihullgirl View Post
MikeJohns, I am still waiting for you to cite your sources for the assertions you're making, as I asked in this post:

How do you feel about catamarans?

Mr Eisberg is glad to cite. I still await yours, Mr Johns
I'm sorry this is tardy. I'm in the process of retiring and moving and my world is in as much disarray as the inverted cats :-)

I cannot post copyright material unfortunately but I can provide enough links for you to follow up and read the personal accounts of people inverted in heavy weather. Later I will have my papers unpacked and I have more details.

However hopefully the following accounts will illustrate just how invalid the claims are that sitting on an inverted cat in heavy weather is even tenable as a survival platform.

This is not an exhaustive list. It would pay to talk to the Wolfstan institute in Southhampton UK they are a commercial arm of Southampton University that analyzes such disasters. They have also produced an interesting report ( 1999 ) on the causes of inversion after looking at 67 (Sixty Seven) cruising catamaran inversions of over 33' in length with enough information available to analyze the data. This was to produce a commercial code for sailing cats and the conditions of operation.

Anyway the following accounts are all horrific and my heartfelt condolences go to the poor families who are still devastated by the loss of their loved ones. The dead have no voice, the survivors are often emotionally shattered for a decade or more. And these shattered survivors are people who lost fellow crew not family.

Anyway.....

The most recent 2013 that I'm aware of, was a Belize 43 Catamaran in the Med , they pushed on under power in a gale to try and make port, their props were fouled by a floating line, probably lost fishing gear, consequently they lost their propulsion which they needed to make port, they tried sailing, something broke, the sail shredded and they then drifted out to sea under bare poles. At that point they were not in distress. But they were not heard from again.The Cat was inverted and all 5 adults aboard died either unable to make the hull or washed off it. The intact inverted craft was washed ashore a few days later. The French coroners report probably wonít be released until next year.

April 2006 an Outremer 45 Catamaran also in the Med inverted in an estimated 30 knots of wind Off Cape De Creus in Spain. Of the 5 men and 1 woman aboard 4 died and two survived. The cat was broken up by the sea after being washed ashore. The coroners report is available.

Iíd expect everyone to be aware of Richard Charringtonís ordeal on an inverted cat in 1995 when 4 of the 5 men aboard died. His story was widely circulated after the 2010 Sunday times biographical. A very graphical horrifying account.

The 43 foot Hugo Myers design Queequeg 2 was inverted in heavy seas 180 nautical miles south of Madagascar. Despite activating the EPIRB their location meant rescue was slow to arrive. Two Of the 3 men aboard died.

The Lagoon 38 that inverted in the Atlantic in heavy seas is another example although they triggered an EPIRB and were located one of the 3 men aboard died from exposure before they were rescued. The account is worth reading.

Another example was Catshot the 44 foot cat inverted in heavy seas in the Pacific of the Oregon coast, all 3 men died unable to remain on the upturned cat. The remains of a snapped tether was tied to the upturned hull. That is one of the few cats Iím aware of that inverted while laying to a sea anchor. The skipper was very experienced . Only two months before Catshotís crew were killed another delivery trip gone wrong had killed, Steve Hobley in the 38 foot cat in the Atlantic.

The fatalities were due to the sea conditions that inverted the catamarans making them completely untenable as survival platforms. You will only be likely to survive if you can get inside the hull in a safe dry space while awaiting rescue.

If you sail offshore and get inverted by heavy weather, and there is no ship close by, or you your EPIRB isn't activated or doesn't work, then you can expect a high mortality rate unless the catamaran is specifically designed for inverted survival. Since that adds cost it's only going to occur if it's legislated. Note that an escape hatch is not designing for inverted survival it's to get out without having to dive.

I think we are also entering a phase of very dangerous designs both performance oriented and at the other end of the spectrum massive RV's with high centers of gravity sliding glass door and excessive windage.

It's important to cut through the hype of invulnerability and even equivalence to monohulls and instill some very conservative prudence even fear in cat operators. Otherwise the death rates will continue to climb.

Most importantly cat operators should deploy sea anchors early, shouldn't run with drogues if the forecast is bad and a sea anchor is likely. Several cats have capsized running towing drogues and have also had rudders fouled by drogue lines .
captain jack and capt vimes like this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to MikeJohns For This Useful Post:
Multihullgirl (03-20-2014)
  #254  
Old 03-19-2014
smj smj is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 98
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 6
smj is on a distinguished road
Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJohns View Post
I'm sorry this is tardy. I'm in the process of retiring and moving and my world is in as much disarray as the inverted cats :-)

I cannot post copyright material unfortunately but I can provide enough links for you to follow up and read the personal accounts of people inverted in heavy weather. Later I will have my papers unpacked and I have more details.

However hopefully the following accounts will illustrate just how invalid the claims are that sitting on an inverted cat in heavy weather is even tenable as a survival platform.

This is not an exhaustive list. It would pay to talk to the Wolfstan institute in Southhampton UK they are a commercial arm of Southampton University that analyzes such disasters. They have also produced an interesting report ( 1999 ) on the causes of inversion after looking at 67 (Sixty Seven) cruising catamaran inversions of over 33' in length with enough information available to analyze the data. This was to produce a commercial code for sailing cats and the conditions of operation.

Anyway the following accounts are all horrific and my heartfelt condolences go to the poor families who are still devastated by the loss of their loved ones. The dead have no voice, the survivors are often emotionally shattered for a decade or more. And these shattered survivors are people who lost fellow crew not family.

Anyway.....

The most recent 2013 that I'm aware of, was a Belize 43 Catamaran in the Med , they pushed on under power in a gale to try and make port, their props were fouled by a floating line, probably lost fishing gear, consequently they lost their propulsion which they needed to make port, they tried sailing, something broke, the sail shredded and they then drifted out to sea under bare poles. At that point they were not in distress. But they were not heard from again.The Cat was inverted and all 5 adults aboard died either unable to make the hull or washed off it. The intact inverted craft was washed ashore a few days later. The French coroners report probably wonít be released until next year.

April 2006 an Outremer 45 Catamaran also in the Med inverted in an estimated 30 knots of wind Off Cape De Creus in Spain. Of the 5 men and 1 woman aboard 4 died and two survived. The cat was broken up by the sea after being washed ashore. The coroners report is available.

Iíd expect everyone to be aware of Richard Charringtonís ordeal on an inverted cat in 1995 when 4 of the 5 men aboard died. His story was widely circulated after the 2010 Sunday times biographical. A very graphical horrifying account.

The 43 foot Hugo Myers design Queequeg 2 was inverted in heavy seas 180 nautical miles south of Madagascar. Despite activating the EPIRB their location meant rescue was slow to arrive. Two Of the 3 men aboard died.

The Lagoon 38 that inverted in the Atlantic in heavy seas is another example although they triggered an EPIRB and were located one of the 3 men aboard died from exposure before they were rescued. The account is worth reading.

Another example was Catshot the 44 foot cat inverted in heavy seas in the Pacific of the Oregon coast, all 3 men died unable to remain on the upturned cat. The remains of a snapped tether was tied to the upturned hull. That is one of the few cats Iím aware of that inverted while laying to a sea anchor. The skipper was very experienced . Only two months before Catshotís crew were killed another delivery trip gone wrong had killed, Steve Hobley in the 38 foot cat in the Atlantic.

The fatalities were due to the sea conditions that inverted the catamarans making them completely untenable as survival platforms. You will only be likely to survive if you can get inside the hull in a safe dry space while awaiting rescue.

If you sail offshore and get inverted by heavy weather, and there is no ship close by, or you your EPIRB isn't activated or doesn't work, then you can expect a high mortality rate unless the catamaran is specifically designed for inverted survival. Since that adds cost it's only going to occur if it's legislated. Note that an escape hatch is not designing for inverted survival it's to get out without having to dive.

I think we are also entering a phase of very dangerous designs both performance oriented and at the other end of the spectrum massive RV's with high centers of gravity sliding glass door and excessive windage.

It's important to cut through the hype of invulnerability and even equivalence to monohulls and instill some very conservative prudence even fear in cat operators. Otherwise the death rates will continue to climb.

Most importantly cat operators should deploy sea anchors early, shouldn't run with drogues if the forecast is bad and a sea anchor is likely. Several cats have capsized running towing drogues and have also had rudders fouled by drogue lines .
Thanks for the stats and your right, sometimes luck isn't on your side.
What about tethering a liferaft of the inverted multi. That way there is at least a good visual for the rescue team.
And how do you think this would compare to mono sinkings? Just recently I've heard of at least three monos with crew that were lost at sea. Not trying to be argumentative but I don't think there is a perfect boat.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #255  
Old 03-20-2014
Multihullgirl's Avatar
don't like leanin'
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: gulf coast MS
Posts: 491
Thanks: 130
Thanked 38 Times in 36 Posts
Rep Power: 4
Multihullgirl is on a distinguished road
Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

Thanks Mr Johns, BTW you can post copyrighted material if you include a source cited, just like any other research paper etc
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #256  
Old 03-20-2014
Multihullgirl's Avatar
don't like leanin'
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: gulf coast MS
Posts: 491
Thanks: 130
Thanked 38 Times in 36 Posts
Rep Power: 4
Multihullgirl is on a distinguished road
Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

If you want to get some goss about monohulls, it is instructive to get an original/old edition of Adlard Coles' HEAVY WEATHER SAILING, one that is authored by Coles, and doesn't include chapters by other authors.

DDDB (Drag Device Database) is another good read
christian.hess likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #257  
Old 03-25-2014
souljour2000's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 601
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
souljour2000 is on a distinguished road
Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

Excellent thread and plenty of food for thought..especially as I myself am seeing big multihulls in huge numbers come down the ICW this spring thus far...many are quite attractive...Perhaps some have watertight hatches built into the hull below waterline that could hold rafts and survival bags that could be accessed by "m.o..b's " in the event of a capsize? In any case...I have thought that cats would be great for alot of types of sailing many folks do where legs can be completed in three- day weather windows or less...beyond that I would be a bit wary of being offshore in one..but their speed in the right conditions is certainly highly enticing ..just some thoughts..hope this thread still has more in it...

Last edited by souljour2000; 03-25-2014 at 01:18 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #258  
Old 03-25-2014
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 10
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Sashav is on a distinguished road
Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

I don't feel that safe on catamarans, I don't know why. Probably I am biased because the one time I was on a cat I felt really sick.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #259  
Old 03-25-2014
pdqaltair's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Posts: 2,126
Thanks: 1
Thanked 27 Times in 27 Posts
Rep Power: 6
pdqaltair is on a distinguished road
Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJohns View Post
Most importantly cat operators should deploy sea anchors early, shouldn't run with drogues if the forecast is bad and a sea anchor is likely. Several cats have capsized running towing drogues and have also had rudders fouled by drogue lines .
I think we know where you stand, so I won't argue that. I've sailed cats for 30 years, understand the feel, and marvel at ANYONE who sails anything without substancial small boat experience; that is my rant. For example, the cat that capsized in 30 knots was almost certainly a victim of appallingly poor seamanship. That's just a fresh day on my 34' cat!. But I reef and use good sense.

But specifically, what is your case against a drogue? Some, with huge doors in the back, are obvious. But do you have some more general reasoning? I've used a drogue on a cat with a high transom and believe it can be the very best answer for suitable boats. The word suitable implies a transom that can shed waves, as many can.
__________________
(when asked how he reached the starting holds on a difficult rock climbing problem that clearly favored taller climbers - he was perhaps 5'5")

"Well, I just climb up to them."

by Joe Brown, English rock climber




To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #260  
Old 04-08-2014
Multihullgirl's Avatar
don't like leanin'
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: gulf coast MS
Posts: 491
Thanks: 130
Thanked 38 Times in 36 Posts
Rep Power: 4
Multihullgirl is on a distinguished road
Re: How do you feel about catamarans?

on the light side:

Multihulls Are For Lovers BY JAMES C. MILLER

Author's Note.- ParentaI guidance for the protection of our youthful readers is advised in regards to this article. Ladies of delicate sensibilities and readers who might be offended by graphic descriptions of sexual activity should read no farther
The sailboat industry has long harbored a dark secret, one known only to those at the innermost core of the industry. Although this secret involves a matter of utmost importance to those who sail, it is never discussed and never written about. It may the only subject which Lynn Pardey hasn't written anything about; the Hiscocks have never mentioned; the Roths are silent on; that Chapman ignores: and even authors back to Slocum have said nothing about. Despite the fact that it is the major cause for putting sailboats up for sale, any salesman mentioning it would he blackballed by the industry for life.
I believe it is time for the industry to 'come out of the closet' on this matter and make the facts known to the general public. Ours has become a sophisticated society capable of taking the sordid and shocking in stride. Furthermore, thanks to advances in technology, a cure is readily available.
Since this information could be emotionally unsettling, for many people, to protect the casual reader who might come upon it without proper warning, we are printing the startling result of our research below. After reading the subject topic, you may choose to exit this article:
SEX ABOARD A SAILBOAT IS ABSOLUTELY LOUSY!
I know that this strikes at the foundation of all that we have been led to believe about sailing, but I can vouch for its veracity. While researching this subject, I personally have acted as a guinea pig over a period of many years, at great risk, expense, and discomfort. I have interviewed hundreds of people who have bravely attempted to have sex on a monohull, all in the interest of advancing the frontiers of scientific knowledge. Many of these people have suffered serious injuries while conducting this research. Their sacrifices should not go unrecorded. They are the true heroes of this story.
Based on indisputable evidence, which is available to any qualified fellow scientist in this field, I have formulated the First Principle of Monohulls:
God Did Not Intend Man to Procreate while on an Angle.
A perfect example of this principle is the experience of a couple I'll call Dionne and Charles. While on a cruise with another couple, they felt the need to express their affection for one another in a physical way. Going below, Dionne got into their bunk, only to find herself wedged tightly between the bulkhead and the bunk because the boat was heeled 45 degrees on port tack. Despite the discomfort, the couple proceeded with their amorous activities.
Unfortunately, just at what might he described as, a 'climactic moment,’ the helmsman brought the boat about onto the starboard tack, throwing the couple to the cabin sole and causing serious physical and emotional harm. Later marital problems have been traced to this single incident The couple is rumored to be considering a divorce.
Even while level, the monohull is designed to deprive the romantically inclined of any enjoyment. The perfect example of this fact is the diabolical "V" berth, a fixture in virtually every monohull constructed since the dawn of time.
The "V" berth allows two people to have their heads together while their feet are 4' apart; or their feet together while their heads, are separated. No intermediate points can get close.
In all of our research, only one person reported satisfaction with the "V" berth. This was a fellow from Southern California who I willcall Lonny. He has a foot fetish and slept with his head forward; while his wife, who I will call Cherie, slept with her head aft. Although Lonny was happy, Cherie was lonely. Eventually they divorced. We have no record of what happened to either after that.
Research shows that many couples like to keep their bedroom activities to themselves. Because of the space limitations and layout of monohulls, this is virtually an impossibility. Sounds made in one stateroom are readily audible throughout the boat. On a monohull, you surrender your privacy the minute you come aboard.
If anyone manages to consummate a sexual act, our research reveals that one or more of those involved frequently wish to visit the head shortly thereafter. And where is the head on a monohull? Often in or beside someone else's stateroom. In extreme cases, it may actually be under someone else's bunk.
The advertising industry has been one of the major causes of misinformation about monohulls. For years, sailing a monohull has been depicted in print and on television as a very romantic activity. For example, a television ad for personal banking services showed a mature man at the helm of a monohull under sail, yachting cap on his head, blazer on his back, drink in his hand. Just beyond him lounged a young lady in 2 -piece bathing suit who could have qualified as Miss America. The boat glided smoothly through the sea, heeling not a single degree.
Our research revealed what actually happened after the cameras stopped rolling: The wind came up a few knots, the boat heeled, the girl went below and got sick, clogging up the head in the process. The owner put the boat on autopilot and went down to work on the head. With no one on deck, the boat ran aground. To get free, Mr. Mature and Miss America had to wait 10 hours for the next high tide. Upon returning to his slip at 2 a.m., the owner found his worried wife awaiting him. Her reaction to finding the young girl aboard was predictable. She filed for divorce, and the boat had to be sold to pay the legal fees.
So much for truth in advertising,
Thanks to advances in modern technology, there's a ready solution to the sex-while-sailing problem: The Cruising Multihull! Instead of heeling, it moves rhythmically, like a Magic Fingers bed vibrator. There is enough room for privacy and every stateroom can have a private head, if desired. It truly puts romance into sailing.
I believe the multihull industry has a moral obligation to bring these benefits to the attention of our sailing brothers and sisters. Perhaps buttons worn at boat shows would be an inexpensive and effective way to begin this crusade. Later, other media, such as magazines and television, can become involved. Our first slogan might be:
MULTIHULL SAILORS DO IT ON THE LEVEL.
Reprinted from Multihull Magazine; Jan/Feb 1993; with minor editing
tdw, Sixpak and jwing like this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Most of you know how I feel about waving, right? flyingwelshman General Discussion (sailing related) 32 08-19-2013 10:46 PM
Help I feel out of my depth rwilson37643 Boat Review and Purchase Forum 44 02-12-2012 12:21 PM
Does anyone ever feel this way? Barquito General Discussion (sailing related) 43 10-10-2010 12:32 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:43 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.