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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22?
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Thread: Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-19-2013 08:09 PM
Mor22
Re: Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22?

Aha. Thanks for these explanations of "turning". We found our Morgan reasonable through turns but were less happy after sailing the Tanzer, thinking that there was something more we should be able to do with our boat. We didn't realize (being newer sailors) that there would be an optimum turn rate for any given boat because of the keel shape and rudder stall angle, but it makes sense now.

Schockt- thanks for the info about templating and fairing. This is more in line with what we might explore for our rudder. I will get some pics of our rudder and see what the forum members think of the 41year old design. (I know the Tanzer 22 group were very happy when a new improved rudder was produced for their boat).

We don't race but you know how it is when two sailboats are going in the same direction....................
03-19-2013 06:41 PM
fallard
Re: Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mor22 View Post
SchocktT- could you explain the "turning faster is not necessarily the fastest way to turn"

I am looking at making the rudder more of a foil shape to improve handling. If anyone has any favorite web information links for a project like this, please share.

Thanks
I didn't see a response to your question about "turning faster". One answer is that turning your rudder too fast can increase the angle of attack of your rudder and stall it, just like an airplane wing. If your keel arrangement does not have the hydrodynamic "lift" to allow a quick turn, you may be stalling your rudder in your haste to turn. That can be counterproductive if you not only reduce the hydrodynamic "lift" of the rudder, but also turn it into a brake. SchockT was implying that you might actually slow your turn rate by turning your rudder hard over and stalling it.
03-19-2013 04:28 PM
Barquito
Re: Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22?

Quote:
What I mean when I say "turning fast isn't the fastest way to turn" is that maintaining your boatspeed is more important than changing course quickly. Putting the helm hard over when you tack can really put the "brakes" on, and you scrub a lot of speed. The result is that you come out of the tack low and slow. Making a wider, smoother turn may help you to maintain your speed, and as a result you will be up to full speed and full point sooner on your new tack. Every boat is different, and some boats can be "thrown" around more than others. You are better off figuring out what works for your boat rather than worrying about turning as fast as your competitors.
Plus, when you are doing a controlled, gracefull tack, you are spending more time heading directly toward your destination as you tack.
03-19-2013 03:45 PM
SchockT
Re: Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22?

What I mean when I say "turning fast isn't the fastest way to turn" is that maintaining your boatspeed is more important than changing course quickly. Putting the helm hard over when you tack can really put the "brakes" on, and you scrub a lot of speed. The result is that you come out of the tack low and slow. Making a wider, smoother turn may help you to maintain your speed, and as a result you will be up to full speed and full point sooner on your new tack. Every boat is different, and some boats can be "thrown" around more than others. You are better off figuring out what works for your boat rather than worrying about turning as fast as your competitors.

On your rudder, templating and fairing can make a big difference, and won't get you in trouble with handicapping like replacing or modifying a rudder would. Templating is when you find the foil profile for your rudder, and cut pieces of thin plastic or wood in your desired foil shape. You can then place the templates at various points down each side of the rudder to show you where you need to add or remove fairing compound to achieve the correct foil shape. That can make a big difference to the efficiency of your rudder.
03-19-2013 03:06 PM
deniseO30
Re: Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22?

Keeping up with others can be expensive. Sell the Morgan and get a T22 if your that unhappy! Then they will get a bigger boat.. and then you will be unhappy again...
03-19-2013 02:08 PM
geronimotwo
Re: Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22?

^^^ this. your rudder has been designed such that the center of effort is placed properly, making it larger or smaller will change the overall charecteristics of your boats handling (not just while turning). also, as mentioned before, the length of the keel, and hull shape will have a great impact on the turning radius, even if the rudders are placed and shaped identically.
03-18-2013 06:53 PM
Stumble
Re: Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22?

Mor,

Messing with a rudder is typically a bad idea without a lot of engineering behind it. Besides the foil shape aspect, you also have to deal with balance (both CE on the boat, and a balanced rudder), attachment issues, hull strength issues, ect.

Typically a deeper, thinner, narrow foil will be best, but there are a lot of trade off decisions that need to be made. For instance a thinner foil is faster, but more prone to stalling, while a narrower rudder has less wetted surface, but has less bite.
03-18-2013 06:23 PM
Mor22
Re: Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22?

Well thanks for the input so far. Most interesting. I should have clarified that our friends Tanzer actually is the centreboard version and they have been sailing it without the board down, so they have a "stubby" keel, which is a little more than we have without our board down.

Having put new sails and rigging on our Morgan, we won't be parting with her any time soon to buy a Tanzer, though I can see the attraction of that boat. With bad knees it is easier to walk around the side of our boat than step up onto the cabin roof of the Tanzer.

SchocktT- could you explain the "turning faster is not necessarily the fastest way to turn"

I am looking at making the rudder more of a foil shape to improve handling. If anyone has any favorite web information links for a project like this, please share.

Thanks
03-17-2013 10:46 AM
chucklesR
Re: Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22?

Full keels just don't turn like a fin keel.

Here's the deal, take him into shallow water and see how fast he can turn

All boats are compromises.
03-17-2013 10:43 AM
blutoyz
Re: Why does Tanzer 22 turn faster than Morgan 22?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rugosa View Post
It's French Canadian mon amis, say no more, oui! Those French, they are so fast, no?
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