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  Topic Review (Newest First)
31 Minutes Ago 06:40 PM
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Smack, even if I were to ignore Jon's comments about the effects of the telephoto lens (which of course I should not), those waves are not all that high. It is a nasty situation to be sure, but far from catastrophic in my view. As was pointed out, you can always see the gunwale of the boat so the waves are less than five feet. When we anchored at Easter Island we had swells in the five to six foot range. the following week, after we had gone, a couple of boats experienced swells in the 10- 12' range, but in deep water - anchors were down in 40 to 50 feet, obviously with lots of chain out.

An unrelated, but interesting, wrinkle to the story. The people on one of the boats that experienced the very nasty conditions continued on to Patagonia and up the Atlantic Coast to the Caribbean. We of course were heading west. We ended up sharing a Christmas Day potluck dinner in Grenada three years after both us were at Easter. It is a small world - or at least the cruising community is.
40 Minutes Ago 06:31 PM
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Simply beautiful hypeer.

Good on you!!!!!

Smackie doesn't seem to realize virtually all cruisers use snubbers routinely even with all chain rodes. Windlasses are expensive. When it's even a bit snotty or you are going to either leave the boat virtually everyone sets up two. I like two because I find the boat hunts a lot less.
1 Hour Ago 05:39 PM
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

This is as much a question as anything else.

First, laying at anchor last fall some AH in a 60+' sort fisherman comes by at jut below plane, max wake. There is a nice 40' sloop next to us and the wake picked her out of the water to the popping where I could see a good bit of their rudder. The couple immeditly came rushing to the cockpit to see what was up, clearly alarmed. Another small sloop was rocking through 30 easy. My Wife, working below in our 44' steel tub, hardly noticed.

But more to the point, I had to rebuild our bowsprit, old one rusted out. While doing so I moved the anchors out on the sprit and separated them. So now I have two good sized anchors that don't hit the hull and don't foul the Bob stay.

The Bob stay attachment was 1/2" SS welded to the cut water. To that I added another bit of 1/2" SS welded to the cut water and to the Bob stay. I figured it would strengthen the whole assembly.

When I set my anchor, which I haven't done much yet, I run my snubber from the cut water. The chain hangs loose caught by an ABI chain stopper. If needed I could back that up to the Samson Post. The chain should never pull on the bow roller, unless the snubber snapped. But then the chain is caught in the roller assembly sides, 3/16" SS, and then lateral movement is caught by the chain stopper.

My sense is that is a pretty good arrangement, provided she doesn't sail at anchor too much.

Any thoughts or criticisms?

Bare assembly befor welding onto boat.

4 Hours Ago 02:40 PM
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
And now we're back on the wind. I honestly could give a damn what NOAA's data says. Have you looked at the video? THAT is reality for what that boat was facing at the time due to a series of well-documented, very ill-advised moves by the owner.
Yes, I've watched it... And, through the eyes of a photographer who spent much of his professional life looking through a Nikkor 600mm f/4 lens, as a matter of fact... ;-)

That video is shot at a pretty high telephoto perspective, right at beach level... There's no easier way to impart greater visual drama to an image, than to shoot from a low angle, and greatly compress and flatten the distance between the camera, and the subject...

Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Surely even you can understand the wind didn't destroy that boat - despite Ian Van Tuyle's best efforts. The WAVES did.
Again, those seas are not as large as you appear to believe. They can't be, given the depth of the water. And even from such a low angle, and with such a telephoto perspective where the surf is seen breaking virtually on top of the beach grass in the foreground, the hull of that boat never completely disappears from view in a trough...

Once you actually start going places under sail, you may find that such wave action can easily be replicated in certain situations, in winds far less than are seen in that video... 20 knots of breeze against the Gulf Stream, for instance, could produce conditions matching those, as would many other situations around places like Nantucket Shoals, or the tidal races at the Fundy entrance near Cape Sable... The French who sail around Biscay off places like St Malo, would scoff at the notion that those waves are anything out of the ordinary...

In my experience, I believe the forces acting upon that boat are no more extreme than one who has resorted to lying to a sea anchor in a decent blow offshore... By your line of argument, you seem to be conceding that a production boat like that Hunter should not necessarily be expected to withstand the forces that might come with the application of that particular storm tactic... If you're comfortable crossing an ocean with such limitations, good luck...

I simply happen to disagree, and that would not be my preference...
4 Hours Ago 02:26 PM
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Sue ( the lady in that picture) might disagree with you. She's seen some stuff.

Have you ever actually seen the set up on an Outbound. That "thin" lateral plate is actually very thick 316 stainless. I believe as thick as a BS hull or thicker. There is a very heavy rod above the deployed rode so extraordinarily unlikely it would jump out. The whole structure is through bolted in multiple places to thick solid glass and appropriately backed. Much like a keel.

With them all over the world I'm sure they have seen worse then that video. Hell, we saw worse then that video for two days anchored off anagada.

There has never been a failure of that structure in any Outbound. The video shows different for that model.

Here you are blowing smoke. Plain and simple. Please actually look at one then come back and we can have an educated conversation. As Jon said there is no doubt the hi test chain would fail before the boat. Even in that scenario I doubt damage to that structure beyond surface scratches to the stainless.

Pick away but you're just showing folks who know HR, Outbound, and other ocean cruising boats how untenable your position is.

Please don't choke on your turkey. It's too much fun to do this back and forth.
5 Hours Ago 01:32 PM
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
What a Bob Perry design with only one transverse frame? I was told that wouldn't work!
Relying on shape instead of a whole lot of transverse framing? I was also told that doesn't work!
As is often the case, we have no idea to what exactly do you refer, or what exactly you mean. Care to clarify?
6 Hours Ago 01:02 PM
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Originally Posted by outbound View Post
You gave me a hit so I'll hit back. Actually outbound is designed for that. Boat two after mine got caught in strong cell in L.I.S. of all places. Saw 60 then readings became inaccurate. Husband and wife team felt safest was to anchor which they did and rode it out with no issue or damage. Admittedly not a full blown hurricane.
Look at the construction of a IP, Rustler, HR, Malo, Boreal, Garcia etc. you will see much attention to anchoring systems. Or my boat where there is a massive SS platform spreading loads across the bow. Loads are also transferred to bob stay and head stays. We further spread loads with snubbers running to well supported bow cleats in usage. Lateral loads designed to transfer to the hull. Then look at your current Cat A boats. With no platform in calm waters anchor hits the hull. To get a clean deck windless is below deck and bow cleats under engineered.

The plumb bow looks good and may add lwl so speed but it is no joy for the cruiser living on the hook.

As Jon has inferred these are issues which cost a lot and detract from the sleek look wanted at the boat shows. A bunch of ugly crap on the fore peak. Loss of space. Toe stubbers. But it's easy to wash the chain and windless as anchor comes up. You can clear the mud off the anchor easily. The anchor doesn't hit the hull coming up.

Devils in the details.

Does this impact on ocean readiness and Cat A rating. NO. Is it something NAs know how to do right. YES. But the emphasis has shifted. This is not a design feature you would have seen on a boat at any price point in the past. It is not solely about the money. It's about how the big houses see their boats being used. I love to sit at the peak looking down at the cut water. It's a real wiggle to do it on my boat. Awkward at best. But see beautiful great sailing boats like X yachts hanging big ugly padded leather aprons off their bows to protect them. Compromise. Get max lwl for loa and a clean deck or best function for anchoring.
Out - I'm not picking on you or your boat. I'm speaking generally, just like you and everyone else speaks generally about production boats...which drives Bob and Jeff crazy...but we all just can't seem to help ourselves.

But since you bring it up, here's a couple of photos of the roller on an Outbound 46:

Do I know it would fail just like the Hunters did? Absolutely not. Is it possible for me to see that in extreme lateral snatch loads while anchored in large pounding surf how the chain might rip through that thin outside plate, jump the track, and start sawing through the fiberglass leading to eventual failure? Yeah, I could see that as a possibility.
6 Hours Ago 12:34 PM
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Originally Posted by noelex77 View Post
It is hard to tell from a photo like this, but it is worth examining boats that have been damaged. I sometimes shake my head at the laminate thickness used in critical areas.

One nice thing about aluminium construction is that you can see exactly what you are getting. This is a similar sized production aluminium boat (upside down):

I certainly won't argue that metal boat construction is a completely different animal than fiberglass.

But, I'm pretty comfortable that even if the laminate in that Hunter's bow was several millimeters thicker - having an anchor chain sawing down through it in crazy seas is still going to produce the same outcome - even if it has a BWC label on it.

For example, I will readily admit that this roller assembly on this Oyster 575 is impressive:

Would it easily stand up to the extreme lateral snatch loads you see in that video? How much do you want to bet?
6 Hours Ago 12:31 PM
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Those conditions are not as extreme, or as rare, as you're trying to make them out to be... What makes them appear worse than would be typical of the 33-35 knot windspeeds being seen at the time, is the extremely shoal depth of the water that is dramatically heaping up those seas...
Wow - you must REALLY need to believe what you believe. "Extreme or rare as I'm trying to make them out to be?" I'm just saying what the video is saying. You're the one trying desparately to spin it.

And for the record, I'm not just talking about the wind - it doesn't matter that much, why you would focus only on that I'm not sure - I'm talking about those "dramatically heaping up seas" you at least acknowledge driving against a lee shore. That's exactly what will destroy an anchored boat.

Most importantly, these are exactly the seas they were STILL in despite you making the following strangely misguided claim:

Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
As was pointed out repeatedly at the time. tnat boat was on the beach well before anything even REMOTELY approaching storm force winds made their way into the Chesapeake...
So you get a fork and I'll get the crow.

Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Obviously, few people would choose to anchor in such a spot...
Ya think?

And now here we go with your desperate belief system that's showing some severe cracks at the stem...

Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
but the snatching loads at the bow in that situation might be less than those seen when riding to a parachute sea anchor in a big blow, or like aboard the Alden 54 ZULU being towed back thru the Gulf Stream by a CG cutter after losing their rudder in the SDR a few years back...

Looking at the bows of the Outbound and the Oyster berthed right next to me here in Nanny Cay, seems to me either could have withstood those sort of forces, no problem...

I suppose one of those things that distinguishes us Bluewater Chuckleheads, is our theoretical preference for having our ground tackle being the weaker link, as opposed to the boat itself...
No it's theoretical desperation that distinguishes such distinguished gentlemen.

Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Here's the link to NOAA's historical data from 2011, from the nearby reporting station at the Chesapeake Bridge Tunnel... The wind speed throughout that morning rarely exceeded 17 meters/sec - 38 MPH/33 Knots - and barely topped 50 MPH not until late that night, 12 hours after that boat was in the surf/on the beach...

NDBC - Historical Data Download
And now we're back on the wind. I honestly could give a damn what NOAA's data says. Have you looked at the video? THAT is reality for what that boat was facing at the time due to a series of well-documented, very ill-advised moves by the owner.

Surely even you can understand the wind didn't destroy that boat - despite Ian Van Tuyle's best efforts. The WAVES did.

And am I not correct that in a hurricane the seas get generally more whipped up than localized wind conditions might merit? Do I actually need to provide you video of this phenomenon too for you to stop being so intentionally misleading?

So close your eyes and cover year ears and hum loudly while you parse through a weather report so you don't have to look at the video and face reality. I don't care. But, really, stop with the silliness.
6 Hours Ago 12:23 PM
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

I would like to see a video of similar conditions with different weight, hull and keel configurations anchored or moored near each other.

I know my (C&C30MKII) fat assed, relatively, light/tender, wing keel ,racer cruiser sails around at anchor or mooring like crazy.

My last boat (C&C 30)was a heavier fin keel with spade rudder and a narrower ass, behaved much better at anchor or moored in a storm. It still sailed around, just not as bad as my 'more modern-ish' design

I used to laugh at the newer Hunter in front of me in my mooring field. She would sail back and forth to nearly 90 degrees in weather.

Now I have a boat that does that. But I can stand up straight when I pee.
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