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Why a racer for cruising discussion...

32K views 237 replies 34 participants last post by  steve77 
#1 ·
We all have different opinions of what makes a good cruising boat. I get that. Believe me, Paulo's idea of what makes a good cruising boat, Jeff_h's, my dad's, and mine are three different animals altogether! I respect all of their opinions, but I have long tried to make a different case.

My question in what could be a very debated thread is why you would choose what I consider a race boat for cruising? I am sure to get the typical response of, "Because we appreciate being able to sail and appreciate sailing over creature comforts." I have heard some variation of that for years. But, for a fulltime cruising boat, do you really gain that much going to a racing boat for cruising?

First, lets define cruising. Cruising, in my opinion (and everyone gets their own), is fulltime, probably no house, everything in storage, I am going-going-going or living on the water for well over a year, and likely many years, if not permanently. I have to tell you that the difference between taking off for a few weeks or even a few months (both of which I have done) while still maintaining a residence is TOTALLY different than selling it all and sailing (which we do now). Why? Because when you sell it all and sail, you don't have the luxury of odd storage, a place to return to when the boat gets cramped, that (un)realistic knowledge in the back of your head that if your boat sinks, you will just have to move back to your house and deal with the insurance company. I think SSCA has a similar definition, which I agree with, but I guess everyone gets their own. What I don't think is cruising is taking off for a few weeks, maybe a few months, where the idiosyncracies of your boat can just be shrugged off until you get back home. That seems like vacationing to me.

Next, lets define racer/performance/HD. My idea of a performance boat is a boat that meets or slightly exceeds hull speed in normal wind conditions. These are the typical conditions a cruiser will set off in, not necessarily the conditions they will see. Lets say these conditions are 15-20 kts sustained. A boat that cannot reach hull speed at these numbers is what I would define as a HD (heavy displacement cruiser... though I can think of a few more metaphors!). A boat that goes well over hull speed in 15-20, or in less than 15 sustained, I would define as a racer. Again, these are all open to discussion. They are my loose definitions.

Now, I am not in any way suggesting that everyone needs to get a HD Cruiser for cruising (though an argument can be made for them), but why get a racer? The majority of these boats are generally narrow beams, light storage, very light tankage, and deep draft. Many have air draft over 65, cutting off any hope of the ICW, and I can even make a good argument that air and water drafts over ICW limits also cut off safety. The comment will come up as usual, "because we appreciate a performing boat over the creature comforts." Well, if you are cruising, is your boat really still a racer?

For example, my boat used to be a LOT faster than it is now. SHe loved to jump up and go, and now it takes pretty close to 20 to get her at hull speed or thereabouts. I have a LOT of stuff on my boat, and I have two kids. I will admit that without the kids, it would be easier to rearrange this stuff to make it more accommodating for speed. Heck, our cans and food would be cut over half! But does my boat really have that much stuff on it for a cruising boat? Solar? Gotta make power some way. Without solar you are doomed to make power with a generator and subsequently carry more gas and diesel at what can easily add up to more weight. Water jugs. A few diesel jugs. Lots of food. Lots of tools. Lots of spare parts. Life raft. Some books (more minimal now with kindle). Snorkel gear (though I carry dive gear too). Tender. TV. Guitar. Bike. Cart. Minimal documents (now have scanned in most). My boat is heavy. I could cut some stuff, but these all get used and make our boat our home.

So what do you cut? And more importantly, where do you put that stuff that you feel is essential on a race boat? Most of the cruising boats I see, which have lots of storage, still have stuff crammed in every corner and every spare inch. I am not going to say I couldn't get rid of some stuff, but our deal is that if we don't use it much, it is off the boat (spare parts and tools the exception). Lets see, just my tools take up a 30x30x60 area... and that does not even include all the spare parts! Pots and pans of various sizes, including vacuseal bags, flower, sugar, and other necessary items take up the exact same side across from it. Can goods and bottled water fill the bilge. Spare parts in the holds below the waterline. Everything heavy is low, light is high. Most everything on this boat is secured in a locker or behind strong fiddleboards.

So again, what do you cut on a race boat? Can you? Cabinetry is often at a minimum. If you do not cut much, is that boat still a race boat? My argument has long been that when cruising on one of these boats, the stuff that the HD or even performance boats can stowe safely below and in holds, you end up stuffing in every corner, above the waterline, and/or on deck. Whereas we can keep most of our stuff safely secured and below the waterline, you may not or your boat is sooo stuffed down below that you cannot move around. And if you stuff it above deck, is that boat still performing well? Is she still safe for cruising? Because if you put 5000 pounds of stuff on a boat that is 25,000 lbs, then you have altered its displacement by 17%. If you put that same 5000 lbs on a boat that displaces 15000 lbs, you have altered its displacement by 25%... or about 50% more. Not to mention, much of that stuff in my opinion will go above the waterline and on decks whereas other boats can keep it below.

Now, a 40 foot racer as a man cave, single guy, I get that. I don't agree with it, but I get it. Its just you. But can you and a spouse really make that work long term? With kids? And is your boat going to be safer than mine, or a HD cruiser, when you really load it up with what you will need to cruise with? My guess (GUESS) is that you have now really changed that boat and the very properties you came to admire it for are now lost upon your chosen lifestyle. I also guess (GUESS) that in reality, that boat is less safe than the typical HD or performance cruiser which has the ability to properly stowe items.

What are others opinions? Agree? Disagree? Why?

Brian
 
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#137 ·
Well, I designed a Redneck guitar storage space: I put two eye hooks into the bulkhead and a piece of line to hold it down... snicker... BEAT THAT!! And if I had put those eyes on a racer-cruiser, the boat would have split down the middle, pulled the dock down with it, created a tidal wave, and lives would have been lost!!! See! Never take a guitar on a Racer-cruiser! You need a Catalina for that!

You do sail a Catalina, don't ya Bob??

Brian
 
#141 · (Edited)
I have followed this thread with a lot of interest.

I have also somewhat "been there" and done (a bit of) what Brian is doing, cruised for a year and lived aboard for another year. On a boat identical to Brian's - a C400.

Now, while I think the C400 is a superb cruising boat for island hopping and a very comfortable live aboard - in a fully laden cruising state it sure ain't no rocket in light air.

For that reason I found myself motoring (as most other cruisers with too much crap on their boats do) a lot more than I would have liked to.

Brian, in winds below 10 kts, do you sail or motor most of the time?

I like sailing, so if I would do it again, I would lean more towards the performance cruisers that Paolo subscribes to. Sacrifice some comfort for performance.

One thing I know for sure, I would never lean towards the other end of the spectrum, an old design heavy displacement boat. Those chaps motored even more than meself ;-) - and slower too...

Now, to through a spanner in the works, next time around I think the solution for me and the best of both worlds might be a perfomance catamaran.

Fusion Kit Catamarans

Plenty of performance and excellent liveability.

Outbound, I like your boat very much, I have been on both the 46 and the 52. We had a 52 in our marina for awhile, I think it was hull #1. Beautiful ship but close to 1 mil kitted out...
 
#143 ·
Now, while I think the C400 is a superb cruising boat for island hopping and a very comfortable live aboard - in a fully laden cruising state it sure ain't no rocket in light air.

For that reason I found myself motoring (as most other cruisers with too much crap on their boats do) a lot more than I would have liked to.
Just curious, did you have a light-air sail inventory of free-flying sails, such as a spinnaker or Code 0?
 
#145 ·
Using my recently acquired, coveted, secret CD wife's recipe course :)

It specifically states that the bread will only work, if cooked on a Catalina. If cooked on anything faster, the speed and motion of the vessel is such that it is sure to make the bread dry and tasteless.

How many of these youtube videos of young tanned Europeans on Pogos and such show them eating Banana Bread while doing 16 kts huh??
:) :)
 
#149 ·
Wide shallow sterned boats with super lean bows are very badly balanced hulls, hard to control downwind in a rough sea. They have no directional stability. Even a slight narrowing of the stern and filling out the bow can make a huge improvement in directional stability.
Many racers are super deep draft, a huge burden for cruisers. They usualy have nothing in the way of adequate mooring bitts or bow rollers, and often have only dangerous, knee high, plastic coated "Lifelines". Most make a poor choice for cruising in.
 
#150 ·
What specific boat design do you have in mind with your comments?
The average racer/cruiser that I have looked at have around 6' draft; hardly "super deep". Most of them are equipped with mooring bits, bow rollers, and yes, even anchor lockers! Knee high lifelines? not on any boat I have ever sailed on, but then maybe I just have short legs! (How high do you want your lifelines anyway? Waist high? :rolleyes:)

If you are talking about full-on race boats, then yes, they aren't a great choice as they often have very little down below; pipe berths, portapottie and a 1 burner stove if you are lucky.
 
#156 ·
Med:
My guess is that you would lose that bet/race. I think you'd have to give both boats comparative sail inventories to prove anything.
Well actually no, I don't think so. If you gave them the same inventories the faster design would win every time, but we all know that, so it doesn't prove much.

What I was getting at was that I suspect there are many under-appreciated factors that contribute to "speed" (or lack thereof) besides the initial design and weight of gear.

I'm imagining some smug "fast boat" owners that think their boat will outperform anything afloat when in fact they aren't doing everything they can to make it fast. Meanwhile I'll try and stay smug in the knowledge that my boat wins in the "comfort at anchor" race. ;)

MedSailor
 
#153 ·
Med,

the fast boat would still be faster, BUT, the slow boat would probably win hands down on handicap! Airloom does this upon occasion, altho on windier days, due to the boat she races against, size does win too! She is sailed well too!

Marty
 
#155 ·
Boy Brent, you sure do make some broad generalizations. They are not all accurate. My ICON with a big wide stern and a very fine entry tracks like it is on rails and is a very benign boat to drive. By the way ICON was designed as a racer/cruiser and had succesfully cruised all over the Pacific from New Zealand to Seattle. It has a very deep, 13'8" draft lifting keel. It is not your Grandpa's cruising boat but it is a boat that has done a lot of cruising.

Any race boat with "knee high lifelines" would nort qualify for any of the races around here or pretty much abywhere in the world for that matter. There are very strict International regulations for lifelines and pulpits.
 

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#158 ·
Many years ago you told a friend of mine that asymetrical waterlines give better directional stability. The boat you designed for him ,based on that assumption, had none. He was very disappointed with it. He went back to building Spencers, which he had much experience with, boats with much finer sterns, and resulting good directional stability.
 
#157 ·
Ahh, Med,,, I'm not sure you understood my post or perhaps I said it poorly. The fast boat will most certainly win. That's why they call it the "fast" boat.

Of course a poorly maintained and equipped boat will suffer in the performance department wherther it's a heavy boat or a light boat. No news there as yoiu say. The most succesful racers spend a lot of time maing sure everything on the boat is at it's max performance level. You can't win a tacking duel with a frozen primary winch. No news there either.

But you are correct, there is no way to objectively measure the "comfort at anchor" factor. And that may involve much more than just volume. I look at some modern "crossover" type boats with very light and sparse interiors. Is that what I want when cruising? Well, I think it would do the job alright but I'm not sure it would satisfy that part of me that drew me to yachting originally. I kind of like the dark, woody interiors. Kind of hard to measure that feel but it's real.

Sometimes in the harbor after being anchored a few hours I see an old boat come in. It's just about dusk and I know this guy has been sailing all day, slowly tacking back and forth ignorrant of tidal currents and back eddies and just beating up the sound the best he can with his blown out sails and funcky bottom.

The guy gets one of the last good anchorage spots in the harbor, drops his hook and begings tidying up his boat as the sun sets. Sometimes I'm jealous of that guy.
 
#159 · (Edited)
Brent I would never have said that. You can delude yourself all you want. But I would never have said that. You are being stupid and desperate. If anythihg I would have said the opposite. Just look at the old Valiant 40. It had symetrical waterlines ( fore and aft). I have always advocated fore and aft symetry in waterlines, within reason.

Now let's be men here, Be specific. Name the boat. Step up. Name the boat. Come on.

I have never said that. Now it's up to you to provide the truth.
Or, shut the **** up.
 
#160 ·
Bob,

Unfortunetly, Icon was behind the Carr a bit ago off of edmonds coming back from protection island. both were screaming upwind! going to be a quick race for the long course, would not surprise me if they were not all finished by 10 pm at the latest.

I was on the phone to another friend that I thought woudl be racing, he was surprised when I mentioned the Carr was in first OA, we bothfigured withthe way icon was powered up with this current owner, she should have been in front. might have been tacks to the south, but it did look like after a bit Icon might have passed the carr......who knows from Edmonds looking 5 miles south..

Marty
 
#161 · (Edited)
When this thread first popped up, I stood there....arm cocked.... Boston cream pie in hand and ready to let fly... before I stopped to reflect for a moment, and decided that I would not get involved in this food-fight-going-somewhere-to-happen. It was probably a good decision in that the best way to survive a collision is to avoid it in the first place.

But at the end of last week, I received an email from a friend asking if I planned to attend the Annapolis Spring Boat Show. And in that email, he said he was suprised that I did not weigh in on this thread since in his words, "this was a thread which had both barrels aimed right at you".

Try as I might, I could not get that comment off my mind since I was; 1. Out for the weekend doing one form of what I personally would call cruising, and 2. Sailing in conditions that were most enjoyable if you were sailing what Brian would call a racer, but I would call a cruising boat with an acceptable level of performance.

And so here is my take on this whole thread....to me this entire thread is basically the sailing equivillent of trying to convince Goldilocks that the bed and the porridge weren't "just right".

To me, even the premise of these kinds of discussions go way off the track when people try to imply that there is remotely one universally correct truth about subjects that are entirely subjective, like this one....

As I have often said around here, there is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all, correct way to enjoy the water. We each come to the water with our own mix of experience, preferences, budgets, sailing venues, friends and family, physical fitness, free time, sense of adventure, access to different boats, and so on. Within that mix, there may be better and worse choices for what we do on the water, but short of taking purposefully negligent actions that put yourself and others at risk, there is no universally right or wrong way to enjoy the water. Redundant Period

Now then, each of us may look at how someone else choses to enjoy the water and say, "Ya know, that is just plain not for me." That is legit. It is actually a healthy thing to do since you won't get sucked into doing something that is wrong for you just because someone else did it and got away with it.

But you are no more right or wrong whether you chose to buy a boat to sail around the world, or chose to buy a mass production whatever and fill her past brimming with every consumer item that the marketing world can conceive of, or you chose to buy a a replica of 'Svaap' and sail with a former cannibal in spartan conditions to places unknown, or you chose to buy a boat, sit in the cockpit, drink margaritas, watch the sunset, never leave the dock for so long that you farm baracles so successfully that the boat not longer floats on water but is supported by a mountain of barnacles. If you enjoy it and don't harm others, it is all perfectly good.

And for each of these preoccupations there are boats, which will probably properly fit the bill. And that brings me back to Goldilocks.

There is a spectrum of choices out there. There are the boats so heavy and undercanvassed that no matter what happens, they will never sail worth a darn. But dig long and hard enough, and you will find an owner of one of these oyster crushers, who can quote you chapter and verse from their own personal bible of reasons about why they own the perfect boat and go on at length about why this is the perfect boat for everyone who ever existed. "Ah! Just right"

And at the other end, are truly extreme stripped out, we are not joking, useless for anything else but racing, race boats. And there will be the owner of that vessel with his own bible of lauditory proverbs and psalms extolling the devine characteristics of why his craft is the only right vessel for all. "Ah! Just right"

But as Bob Perry, someone who has wrestled these issues to the ground on many occasions would probably agree, all boats, and I mean each and every one of them, is a compromise, and the best of them are the ones that balance those compromises in a way that the owner of said vessel is happy with thier boat. "Ah! Just right"

So for Brian, (Cruisingdad) the Catalina 400 was carved from manna handed down from on high by the great lord Gerry Butler, perfectly formed for him and his family to carry around his family and all their comforts of home. "Ah! Just right"

The Pogo, which Paulo mentioned, is perfect for those young European guys in the video, surfing at 12 knots and grinning ear to ear. "Ah! Just right"

Its not perfect for Paulo, since he would like a little more comfort, but when he finds the right mix of comfort and performance it too will be "Ah! Just right".

Outbound, loves his Outbound as the near perfect balance between performance and safe voyaging. (he's probably right) "Ah! Just right"

Wolfenzee loves his rendition of a 1930's era Atkins design. "Ah! Just right"

As do the whole, love-my-Westsail 32-and-will-fight-to-the-death-anyone-who-says-they-are-slow crowd. "Ah! Just right"

And none of these folks are wrong in terms of the boat being perfect for their needs.

And so for the record, this weekend, I ghosted for 20 miles in often well less than 4 knots of wind, gunkholed my way back into a quiet corner, spent a quiet night on the hook with the Love of My Life (my wife not the boat), and had a rip snorting beat and reach home in gusty conditions, on the most perfect boat (for me). Anything less would have screwed up a perfectly lovely weekend.... "Ah! Just right" But I would never claim that my boat is perfect for everyone.

Which is the whole point....there is no point to a thread titled like this one, in which the definitions are so subjective and the range of acceptable options defined so personally and narrowly. So while I understand why my esteemed colleague and co-moderator might start this discussion and what he hoped might evolve from the discourse, as titled, a thread like this is asking, "How long is a piece of string, and you better be able to fight to the death to justify that answer."

Jus' Say'n (even if I didn't want to)....
Jeff
 
#170 ·
Hey my friend,

That is a beautiful response, but I am not sure that we are talking about the same thing.

I am not asking which boat is best or who makes the best boat. Not at all. My tastes in boats and yours are probably very different, and maybe not so much either, depending on the use. I love "race" boats, or performance cruisers as Paulo calls them. They are fun to sail and be out on. I think another poster here even commented about liking the simplicity of them. How do you disagree with that?? What I am saying is that these boats are awesome for their use, but they do not make a good cruising boat, in my opinion. It is not because they are not of a certain brand, it is because they are traditionally narrow beamed, low storage, tiny bilged, boats. It has nothing to do with their sleeping arrangements or how large their sink is or how many heads they have or dont. THose are comfort features. I am talking about their sheer ability to carry and stowe the items needed for cruising in my view of what cruising is. These boats would make great weekenders or vacation boats, but where do you put the spare water pump? The spare alternator and bilge pump? Where do you put massive amounts of tools? What about books and charts? How do you make the tiny blackwater tanks work which are fine for weekending or if you are always at a marina, but not so great when on the hook or ball. What do you do about the low water tankage? What are you going to do to keep up your power load? Where do you stowe your tender and the gas required to make it run? Where do you stowe your liferaft? Etc, etc...

So my point is that when you start adding up all the things that are 'required' to cruise (and when I say required, I mean from each person's point of view), these boats which make great weekenders and beer can racers, are shoved full of crap everywhere. Where other more cruising oriented boats can stowe all of that stuff safely and securely, you are shoving it into every crevice, filling up the shower stall, taking over the quarter berth, and strapping stuff everywhere on deck. Where a more cruiser-oriented boat can not only safely and securely stowe that stuff, but can also properly stowe things based upon weight (deep bilges are great for heavy items, and heavy items go below the waterline), the racer-cruiser has to stick them above the waterline or wherever they can stick them. SO in the end, what you have is no longer a performance boat or a racer-cruiser. Is it faster than the typical cruiser? Sure... but how much faster, and maybe more importantly, how much safer? How much stuff did you stowe above the waterline that reduces your RM? How much stuff will be flying around when the boat gets into a good storm? How much stuff did you leave off in tools or safety gear because it simply doesn't fit?

Now, as I have said all along, you can MAKE these boats work. But in the end, there are considerable tradeoffs, and the boat you are left with is nothing like the boat you thought you were going to be cruising with. The value of great storage, large tankage, deep bilges, and the accessibility to stuff is not truly appreciated until you cruise.

Brian

PS A side note, of interest maybe: Since 2000, I do not remember seeing one (not one!!) f/t cruiser in a First or a J122. I do not think there is a cruiser in Boot Key right now on one. THis doesn't mean that there are not people on them. It does not mean that I might not have missed one. But I can say with confidence that for the ones that are out there, they make up an exceedingly small part of the FT cruisers. Why is that I wonder?
 
#196 ·
Brian, I mean not over 8k as max speed:D, but the average speed over 8k on the South Atlantic crossing. That means that they have sailed many times at two figures speeds and that is only a 34ft boat.

Regarding the RM, the hull speed is pretty irrelevant, bigger than the one of the Catalina since the LWL is bigger. The RM is a much faster boat, lighter (about less 2000kg) and with the same sail area.

(Brian I think you have measured wrongly the LWL in your boat. I think you have measured it over the hull. The Lwl is a measured in a straight line and not around the hull.)

A Halberg Rasssy is expensive but the model the size of your boat (a bit bigger) does not cost 1 million, much less 2. An HR 415 costs about 450 000 euros.

If you saw the movies you saw that they have a dinghy. I guess they store it in the central (floor) cockpit locker, but it is obvious that they store it somewhere.

Of course the V berth is full of sails. They are only two (many boats cruise with just two) and they like to go fast so they have plenty of sails.

A photo shoot? Water aboard when at anchor? I do not understand what you mean, but you have plenty of nice movies here, maybe they answer your questions:

Le Voyage de Capado: Videothèque

This was the boat they wanted, they are very experienced sailors and the boat was designed by a friend NA according to their requirements, hearing the NA suggestions. The boat was new and if they wanted for the price of the Fox 10.20 (a custom boat) they could have had an used Catalina 40 (or a similar European boat) with not much years and in good condition. That was not what they wanted, they wanted a fast, fun to sail boat that could be sailed on autopilot with a variable draft and easy maintenance.

Not meaning that this is a boat for all and that is not the point but certainly this was the boat they wanted to circumnavigate.

Regards

Paulo
Paulo, the LWL of my boat is 38 feet. With all due respect, and I know you did not mean it disrespectful, but I know what LWL is and how to read a tape measure. I have told you several times that the information on the net on this boat is incorrect... a LOT of it. But that is a discussion for a different day.

Part of the problem with our discussion is what I read on the cruising thread you posted on. We have a different idea of what cruising is, which was why I tried to define it in the beginning of this thread. I am a fulltime, no home, no address, cruiser. I move a lot, or may spend weeks in an anchorage I love. I have no timetable for return to a land life, ever. I can do this indefinitely or quit tomorrow. My boat is my home, my family's home, and our only home. I spend a lot of time on the hook in remote areas that has no restaurants, no parts stores, no grocery stores, nothing. Or sometimes I sit in a mooring fields like I am right now, waiting for the next weather window to take off (to the Bahamas in this instance where, once again, you better load that boat up cuz you don't want to try and get it in the Bahamas or at their price even if you can). It is my intention to sail down to the carribean, though I think we may sail up the east coast of the US this year... or maybe we won't?? No big deal. I move when I want or don't if I don't feel like it. For the type of cruising I do, I have to carry a lot of stuff. Many of the places I go are relatively remote, and many of the places I plan to go are the same. This means lots of tools and lots of spare parts. This means lots of food. This means lots of tankage. So when you or others start to point out boats for cruising, and I begin picking them apart with the issues they will have, we have a very difficult time seeing eye to eye. It does not make my definition of cruising right or wrong. It does not make yours right or wrong. It is what it is, but our definitions really define what works for us in a boat and what will not. As I have said many times, you can make any boat work. But for the type of cruising I do, and my definition of what cruising is, the boats you often point out have significant disadvantages or issues. Because quite candidly, if 'cruising' is hoping on a boat to go somewhere, hanging around a marina, going to restaurants for dinner, then returning after a few days or maybe some weeks to a residence or parking it at your marina, the things you carry are very different. Is that cruising? Many think so. Many do not. I don't. Whether it is or is not is irrelevant. It is the use of the boat that defines it.

If or when you make it to Brazil (and I bet you do!!!), I think you will see that. And I hope you do come. Hey, maybe I'll be there too or meet you around in Guatemala or the Winwards? I would have a blast cruising with you or meeting you and meeting your family. And what's more, my friend, I will race you to the next anchorage (and yes, I have no problem firing up the engine and cheating when you aren't looking)!!!!

Go enjoy your summer break. Shoot us some pics on here. I will do the same. Check in when you can. When you have a nice glass of wine, facing the sunset, shoot me a toast and we will do the same here.

Take care,

Brian
 
#200 · (Edited)
...

Part of the problem with our discussion is what I read on the cruising thread you posted on. We have a different idea of what cruising is, which was why I tried to define it in the beginning of this thread.
I agree that is the problem. The problem is that you cannot imagine that another sailor has an idea of cruising different then the one that you have. I have not an idea of cruising regarding what I post on the interesting boat thread. I know what I like and need but I gladly accept that others cruise in a different way and prefer other boats.

If I decided to voyage and cruise in remote places, or if something strange passed my mind and I decided to circumnavigate on the trade winds then I would prefer a different boat, I mean two different boats, one for each situation. On that thread there are many different types of boats for very different cruisers with very different life styles, some much more sportier than mine, others that need or want to do carry more load than the one you carry.

...
I am a fulltime, no home, no address, cruiser. I move a lot, or may spend weeks in an anchorage I love. I have no timetable for return to a land life, ever. I can do this indefinitely or quit tomorrow. My boat is my home, my family's home, and our only home. I spend a lot of time on the hook in remote areas that has no restaurants, no parts stores, no grocery stores, nothing. Or sometimes I sit in a mooring fields like I am right now, waiting for the next weather window to take off (to the Bahamas in this instance where, once again, you better load that boat up cuz you don't want to try and get it in the Bahamas or at their price even if you can). It is my intention to sail down to the carribean, though I think we may sail up the east coast of the US this year... or maybe we won't?? No big deal. I move when I want or don't if I don't feel like it. For the type of cruising I do, I have to carry a lot of stuff. Many of the places I go are relatively remote, and many of the places I plan to go are the same. This means lots of tools and lots of spare parts. This means lots of food. This means lots of tankage. So when you or others start to point out boats for cruising, and I begin picking them apart with the issues they will have, we have a very difficult time seeing eye to eye. It does not make my definition of cruising right or wrong. It does not make yours right or wrong. It is what it is, but our definitions really define what works for us in a boat and what will not. As I have said many times, you can make any boat work. But for the type of cruising I do, and my definition of what cruising is, the boats you often point out have significant disadvantages or issues.
See, that's your problem. You say: "my definition of what cruising is,", Brian a definition is something that is valid for all. You cannot have a definition of cruising without trying to make it stick to all. You have your way of cruising and a boat that fits your way and that's all. Others will have other ways and other boats more suitable.

Regarding living aboard all year and not having a home I cannot just imagine that. Just for my library I would need to have a 100ft boat:D I am not interested in that as I am not interested in cruising in winter. In fact I have some trouble in imagining how you manage to do that on a 40ft boat, Catalina or not, kids and all.

In fact, in what regards cruising boat design a liveaboard cruising boat is a very particular design. There are no mass production boats designed for that particular criteria. I had a friend that cruised and lived with the family on a boat that seemed adapted to that (it was designed for that) but it was a 60ft boat and even so the space for the kids was not much.

Because quite candidly, if 'cruising' is hoping on a boat to go somewhere, hanging around a marina, going to restaurants for dinner, then returning after a few days or maybe some weeks to a residence or parking it at your marina, the things you carry are very different. Is that cruising? Many think so. Many do not. I don't. Whether it is or is not is irrelevant. It is the use of the boat that defines it.
There you go:rolleyes:

Each case is a case but on my 100 days of cruising last year I had been 4 times in a Marina, two because I damaged the sails and I had to go there one day to deliver them and another to pick them. My water tankage is good for 3 weeks, not taking special care with the water consumption.

On the 100 days I wasted about 250 liters of diesel (mostly for charging the batteries) and sailed about 3000 Nm.

If or when you make it to Brazil (and I bet you do!!!), I think you will see that. And I hope you do come. Hey, maybe I'll be there too or meet you around in Guatemala or the Winwards? I would have a blast cruising with you or meeting you and meeting your family. And what's more, my friend, I will race you to the next anchorage (and yes, I have no problem firing up the engine and cheating when you aren't looking)!!!!

Go enjoy your summer break. Shoot us some pics on here. I will do the same. Check in when you can. When you have a nice glass of wine, facing the sunset, shoot me a toast and we will do the same here.

Take care,
Thanks Brian,

It is not my summer break, it is my 4 months sailing season:D

That Brazil cruise does not mean much to me without my kids, I will not be an year without seeing them so it will not depend on me.

It seems a lot easier to me for you to come sailing on the Med, after all you live with your kids on the boat. If you do I will be more than glad to help. Not all places are expensive and some of the better natural ports are there.

Have a nice passage to Bahamas. I am waiting for those pics.

Regards

Paulo
 
#162 · (Edited)
Jeff, probably because we work making other people dreams come true that gives us a bigger flexibility in what regards personal life style and taste. One of the most difficult and enjoyable works I have made was a big house for a German, a house near the shore and a golf course. He come to me with his wife and said that he wanted a "romantic house".

First I had to understand what was a romantic house for him and his wive, what were the images and the life style that comes to his mind related with a romantic house/life style. In the end I got the right picture and made to him and his wife what he wanted but could not imagine. Both loved the house and the funny thing is that they never understood that the style of his house had nothing to do with most of my work even less with my personal taste in what regards living and housing.

Related with taste and quality versus life style another example: for many years I read the German architectural magazine Hauser (that has great pictures) and used to comment what I liked more with my wife. I soon find out that while I was admiring quality, style and design, not having necessarily to do with what I would like to have for living, my wife was incapable to separate what was pure quality and a great design from what she would like to have for living, meaning that she could only like what suited her.

I believe this happens to many in what regards sailboats: Most can only like and appreciate what is fit for his lifestyle independently to be a great design. If it is not suited to him but only to other type of cruisers or sailors, then it is a bad design.

I don't know if the fact that being used to work satisfying other peoples dreams (that are very different) has to do with the fact that I like many types of boats, and among each type I can appreciate the ones that are truly outstanding, even if they not suit my living and sailing style, I suspect that it has.

Regards

Paulo
 
#168 ·
Jeff, probably because we work making other people dreams come true that gives us a bigger flexibility in what regards personal life style and taste.

Related with taste and quality versus life style another example: for many years I read the German architectural magazine Hauser (that has great pictures) and used to comment what I liked more with my wife. I soon find out that while I was admiring quality, style and design, not having necessarily to do with what I would like to have for living, my wife was incapable to separate what was pure quality and a great design from what she would like to have for living, meaning that she could only like what suited her.

I believe this happens to many in what regards sailboats: Most can only like and appreciate what is fit for his lifestyle independently to be a great design. If it is not suited to him but only to other type of cruisers or sailors, then it is a bad design.

I don't know if the fact that being used to work satisfying other peoples dreams (that are very different) has to do with the fact that I like many types of boats, and among each type I can appreciate the ones that are truly outstanding, even if they not suit my living and sailing style, I suspect that it has.

Regards

Paulo
Paulo

I think that you have hit the nail on the head. A big part of designing anything is defining in an intellectually honest way a clear understanding of the problems to be solved, and a big part of that definition requires the designer to 'get into the head' of the person we are designing for. Often this is a high wire balancing act without a net because the client's head and heart want something which may be mutually exclusive, or which is mutually exclusive with the solution suggested by 'best professional judgement'.

Selecting the right boat, also involves that kind of understanding of the problem and an intellectually honest approach to the solution. All to often we see people proudly parading about in their 'King's new clothes", when the rest of the world can clearly see the nakedness of thier position.

In the end, it's still Goldilocks, "Ah, just right" or as my grandmother would say when asked about decisions that she did not like, "As long as you are happy." ;)

Jeff
 
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#163 ·
Paulo:
I have spent my life drawing other people's dreams.
That's easier than drawing mine. My dreams change all the time. If it's gusting to 6 knots in the morning I have one dream. If it breezes up in the afternoon and I see 25 knots TWS then I have another dream. I need several boats.
 
#164 ·
At thend, Jeff, Paulo and Bob have said the same thing, while I probably DO NOT have the same schooling credentials. after spending 30 some odd years landscaping yards, some I designed, others another did.....everyone has a different taste as to what is right for them. I remember doing one yard thinking it looked nice, not my style, but at the end, the HO loved it, He wondered if I would want it in my back yard. I had to admit yes but no. I did notlike the tan/brown Italian look and feel. I would have choosen different colored pavers, and a different style for my yard. For him, it worked and looked great.

At the end of the day.....I think I said it before, there is no right or wrong boat, only one that works for you!

Marty
 
#165 · (Edited)
I work in a different field. Not infrequently there is a right ( this increases the odds you will stay alive) and a wrong ( do this and it's more likely you will die). Trick is to get the person in front of you ( and we all carry our own baggage) to do the right thing and feel they own the decision. Seems like that's true for any professional who is skilled at their avocation.
Same problem with boats. We think we know what will work for us and we know what we lust after but few of us are honest enough with ourselves to recognize what we really need. Hopefully when we can't always get what we want ...we get what we need. ( sorry Mick) when directed by our peers, good friends, a porfessional or a skilled N.A.
 
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