SailNet Community - Reply to Topic

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Looking for a stable 15-18' sailboat
 Not a Member? 


Thread: Looking for a stable 15-18' sailboat Reply to Thread
Title:
  

By choosing to post the reply below you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Click here to view the posting rules you are bound to when clicking the
'Submit Reply' button below


Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Click here to view the posting rules you are bound to when clicking the
'Submit Reply' button below


Topic Review (Newest First)
07-11-2013 01:48 AM
bobmcgov
Re: Looking for a stable 15-18' sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoltsman View Post
I understand the potential issue with the low boom, but would certainly appreciate more info on the "truly filthy habits" and "squirrely" handling. I am leaning towards a Hobie 16 at the moment - provided the three that are for sale in the area don't turn into pumpkins before I can grab one. However, if it takes half the time to rig the Bucc18 as compared to, say, a Hobie 16 or a Prindle 16 - that would be something I would consider, depending on the degree of filthiness and squirreliness. By the way - how is that not a contradiction with being "dead simple to rig and sail"?

I looked at a couple of lightnings, and the Buccaneer looks faster - not that it means anything in particular. More importantly, it seems that the lightning is truly a two person boat while Bucc18 might actually fit like 3 kids plus myself - as long as I don't try to set any records.
The Bucc is simple to rig and sail because it only has two generally used control lines -- mainsheet and jib sheet. Compare to the Lightning, which can have up to fifteen. Buccs often have vangs, too, and these are sometimes employed -- tho the mid-boom sheeting gives you much the same effect since it attaches within a foot of the vang bail. The mainsail's large roach & bendy spars make controlling sail twist off the wind a futile exercise, anyhow.

So it's easy to sail because it only has two meaningful lines; it's a bastard to sail because absolute lack of form or directional stability, total reliance on crew ballast & placement, lack of sail-shaping and depowering options, and unbalanced sailplan mean you are constantly seeking an equilibrium state, but never getting there. It's not a boat that ever really settles down and hauls booty.

Truly filthy habits: perfectly round bilges mean the boat goes from flat to 45* and back with the least puff; it has the form stability of a wine barrel.



At 45* heel, if you can keep it from rounding all the way up, the foils stall, the boat stops going forward & starts crabbing sideways; then it flops down, takes off like a greyhound, heels hard, stalls... lather, rinse, repeat. The centerboard itself is pretty decent, but the trunk typically has enuf slop in it the board twists off and stalls.

You cannot let go of the tiller for an instant, because the boat has no inbuilt directional stability & comes with a hefty dose of weather helm. If you are the only adult and need to be pulling both sets of sheets, you better be clever at steering with your buttocks. When the big mainsail comes over in a jibe, the Bucc tends to broach violently unless the crew sorta "reverse-roll-tacks" it and the helm countersteers like a demon. While the cockpit is large, so is the centerboard trunk, and the converging angles of vang and mainsheet make getting the crew across in tacks somewhat difficult; they have to dive thru a small slot between tackles. And since only crew weight on the rail keeps the boat from tanking in anything over 12kts, they better get over and hiking before the main powers up on the new tack, or you will be swimming. So the Bucc's large cockpit is deception -- you really can't sail it hard with more than one crew, anyhow. It's a two-up club or one-design racer.

The Flying Scot & Lightning are within a whit of the Bucc18 in racing handicap (ie, speed). The Scot is every bit as comfortable, even more roomy, and infinitely more forgiving in strong or puffy winds. Better boat to learn on, for sure. You can relax a little & let the boat take care of you. Think of it as a well-behaved but still energetic gelding. The Bucc is more like a uncut llama.

The Lightning easily carries three adults -- that is its standard racing complement, BTW. Its cockpit is less zaftig than the Bucc or FS, but it ain't a total pain box like the Thistle. But the best part about the Lightning is its versatility: two or three racers can sail the hell out of it, milking the many sail shaping controls for every last ounce of speed. Or you can depower the rig, put away the spaghetti of fine-tuning controls, and just sail it stupid with the whole clan lounging in the corners: it's a stable, reassuring, stiff, straight-tracking family daysailer. I've spent many hours in both the Lightning and the Bucc18, & there's no comparison for manners. The Lightning is as fast as the Bucc, but ever so much kinder in winds over 10kts. Trouble will be finding one in good shape for the same price as Buccaneers, which are dirt cheap & have almost no wood to rot.

Now for a disclaimer: I sail on mountain lakes above 7000'. That tends to magnify any boat's poor habits. There is an active fleet in Denver, where the winds aren't much nicer; tellingly, the best Bucc sailors in the country come out of there. If you can manage this boat in harsh winds, yer gonna steamroll the lowland competition. But even my high thresholds for attitude and excitement have been sorely tested by the Bucc. We haven't sailed it for two years, because the SJ21 is just so much less stressful. Who wants to spend the whole day fighting your ride? Gonna break Grainnia out next week, tho -- see if I remember how to sail a llama.
07-10-2013 10:45 PM
Shinook
Re: Looking for a stable 15-18' sailboat

What about a West Wight Potter or Montgomery 17? They are in a bit of a different category, but you may find them enjoyable as well
07-10-2013 08:18 PM
mgoltsman
Re: Looking for a stable 15-18' sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmcgov View Post
The Buccaneer 18 is a fun, not-too-well-built dinghy* with a great & growing class association & some truly filthy habits. Upstate NY is actually a pretty good place for them, tho -- I grew up on the Finger Lakes & the wind patterns there favor the Bucc's good side. Also the Lightning, which of course was invented for those waters. Much better boat all around, the Lightning. That or the Scot would be first choice for what you describe. The Bucc18 will go a little faster in light conditions, but hiking is mandatory and it don't harden up until 45 degrees heel.

(*Statement does not apply to the new Bucc18s made by Nickels, which are quite fine.)




Yes, no, emphatic no, yes.

If you have specific Qs about the Bucc18, fire away. I don't generally promote them for family sailing, but that really depends on the family. Cockpit is cluttered, boom is low, handling is squirrely, and it ships quite a lot of water. On the plus side, it's dead simple to rig & sail, quite comfy in cockpit or on rail, goes like hell on a power reach, costs next to nothing, and can be fixed with baling wire. And Bucc sailors are right there with FS & Lightning people for niceness & helpfulness.
If I counted your yes's and no's correctly, you say that Bucc18 is far from easy to handle. That's a very important point for me because I am an imbecile as far as sailing goes. I understand the potential issue with the low boom, but would certainly appreciate more info on the "truly filthy habits" and "squirrely" handling. I am leaning towards a Hobie 16 at the moment - provided the three that are for sale in the area don't turn into pumpkins before I can grab one. However, if it takes half the time to rig the Bucc18 as compared to, say, a Hobie 16 or a Prindle 16 - that would be something I would consider, depending on the degree of filthiness and squirreliness. By the way - how is that not a contradiction with being "dead simple to rig and sail"?

I looked at a couple of lightnings, and the Buccaneer looks faster - not that it means anything in particular. More importantly, it seems that the lightning is truly a two person boat while Bucc18 might actually fit like 3 kids plus myself - as long as I don't try to set any records.
07-10-2013 08:06 PM
mgoltsman
Re: Looking for a stable 15-18' sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJC45 View Post
Compared to the F16 cats of today it's like comparing a 67 Mustang GT with a 2014 Shelby 500. The 67 is cool, it's fast for it's day and will still pin you to the seat today. But the Shelby - it will make your eyes bleed! So if you've got the need for speed and about 15 or 20 grand to spend, you can go faster than an H16.
I have neither, but thanks for the info After driving a Mazda RX-8 for four years I realized that it is true - it is more fun to drive a slow car fast than to drive a fast car slow. I don't think the same goes for boats, but I am pretty sure an H16 will still be far more boat than I need while I learn. If I live long enough to outgrow it, I will get back to you about what F16 stands for - I hope you don't mean the jet fighter because that is certainly out of my budget!
07-10-2013 07:57 PM
TJC45
Re: Looking for a stable 15-18' sailboat

One other thing - the H16 hull shape is asymmetrical. Rounded on the center facing face and flat on the outer face. Because the H16 doesn't have dagger boards resistance is created as the heeling pushes the flat outside face of the lee hull against the water. In theory this creates resistance. As effective as a dagger board? Nope! But it works pretty good!!! The boat goes forward in a hurry. Especially at its most effective heeling angle - which is the windward hull just out of the water. Friction reduced ,hammer down, go for it!!!!

Lastly, just to put things into perspective - the H16 is still a widely raced boat, with a very active class association. But, it has been surpassed by technology. Compared to the F16 cats of today it's like comparing a 67 Mustang GT with a 2014 Shelby 500. The 67 is cool, it's fast for it's day and will still pin you to the seat today. But the Shelby - it will make your eyes bleed! So if you've got the need for speed and about 15 or 20 grand to spend, you can go faster than an H16.
07-10-2013 07:41 PM
TJC45
Re: Looking for a stable 15-18' sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoltsman View Post
@TJC45 - thanks for the advice! Exactly the sort of thing I wanted to hear. I will still look at a Prindle 16 just to compare, but this is exactly what I hoped to hear - that H16 is not as unwieldy as its reputation, except when you taunt it. In terms of availability, H16 is certainly the easy answer - even in our quiet neck of the woods at least a dozen change hands each season. And the two that I saw so far look new despite being 30 years old!

By the way, the Wave I rented at a resort - being a noob boat - had this spiffy bubble on top of its mast to prevent turtling. Do you know if something like that is available/possible for the H16? My biggest fear is that I flip it, bungle my first attempt to right it and end up digging that long mast into the silt 20" under water.

One last thing - do you think being on the heavier side might make H16 less of a fit for me? Those hulls look pretty slim and wickedly sickle-shaped - seems like my 200 lbs plus another 200 libs worth of kids (of course I would not dream of racing with such a load) might submerge the tramp! What might be a great platform for a 150 lbs sailor might not be so fitting for a heavier crew!
Your weight is not an issue. Minimum racing weight on an H16 is (i think) 285 pounds. It takes about 260 pounds to right the boat in dead air. With the wind going one of your kids would have a fair shot at getting it righted once the air is under the sail. Regardless, i weigh in at 225 and have never been lighter than 195 in my time with the boat. Not to brag but only to make a point, I have won my share of races with this boat and even managed a couple regatta wins. Also a bunch of second and third place finishes in all classes. So, not only was the boat more than able to carry my fat butt around the race course, it had to carry a crew member as well. Not only did it carry us, we won!!! ( sailing knowledge, boat trim, racing strategy, and luck wins over lowest boat weight)

BTW Hobie 16s race in three classes, A, B, and C. C is the starter class. B intermediate and A is down and dirty as serious as it gets sailboat racing. Depending on location a regatta could draw anywhere from 30 to 150 boats. That was then this is now, where a good draw would be 50 boats. Still, as i worked my way up thru the classes I often found myself on starting lines with 50 or 60 boats in my class. A class would pit me against two dozen expert level sailors. Today there could be a dozen or more boats on the line. Point being - the level of competition made us into really good sailors. And all the gained wisdom is transferable to other boats and racing venues.

The mast float - pluses and minuses - Plus - it will keep the mast floating and prevent a turtle. Turning turtle is only a problem in dangerous seaways or in places as you describe where the boat can get the mast almost all the way round but not quite there. Sticking the mast is a bigger problem than turning turtle. So that's the big plus, one less worry. The negative is levered weight on the end of the mast. When righting the boat physics works against you by adding that levered weight at the end of a long swing arm. Personally I've never seen anyone have a problem righting the boat with the Bob on the mast, but it is a point of discussion.

Hobie masts are sealed. That being the case I've never turtled the boat. But it is something that can happen. If the Mast float gives you peace of mind - go for it!!!!
07-10-2013 06:06 PM
bobmcgov
Re: Looking for a stable 15-18' sailboat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael K View Post
The Bucc you mentioned may also be a good choice - I've never sailed one - but I know of a fellow who collected a fleet of them for his sailing school. They likely aren't as dry as a Scot but have a hull design apparently derivative of a Laser.
Oh dear no. Tho the creators deny it strenuously, the Chrysler Bucc18 is derivative of the venerable Flying Dutchman. As is the Flying Scot. The FS is much, much more stable than the Bucc. You'd have to really try to flip a Scot. I've dumped our Bucc several times. A Lightning is also more stable, given the weighted centerboard, but it's harder to right from turtled than the Bucc. I know some people have trouble standing the Bucc up, but I find it not too bad. Question is, what are the kids doing in the meantime?

The Buccaneer 18 is a fun, not-too-well-built dinghy* with a great & growing class association & some truly filthy habits. Upstate NY is actually a pretty good place for them, tho -- I grew up on the Finger Lakes & the wind patterns there favor the Bucc's good side. Also the Lightning, which of course was invented for those waters. Much better boat all around, the Lightning. That or the Scot would be first choice for what you describe. The Bucc18 will go a little faster in light conditions, but hiking is mandatory and it don't harden up until 45 degrees heel.

(*Statement does not apply to the new Bucc18s made by Nickels, which are quite fine.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoltsman View Post
...or if the Buccaneer is notoriously shifty on a jibe, or if either of them takes forever to rig, that's what I would like to know.... Right now I am leaning towards the Buccaneer because I hear it is among the more forgiving performance dinghies, and it is still in production so parts should be available much easier than for the AMF Sidewinder.
Yes, no, emphatic no, yes.

If you have specific Qs about the Bucc18, fire away. I don't generally promote them for family sailing, but that really depends on the family. Cockpit is cluttered, boom is low, handling is squirrely, and it ships quite a lot of water. On the plus side, it's dead simple to rig & sail, quite comfy in cockpit or on rail, goes like hell on a power reach, costs next to nothing, and can be fixed with baling wire. And Bucc sailors are right there with FS & Lightning people for niceness & helpfulness. Just for yuks, this is what a Bucc18 looks like in 20kts, when the idjit who's supposed be be steering (me) is fooling with a cheap camera.

07-10-2013 05:44 PM
Minnesail
Re: Looking for a stable 15-18' sailboat

If you google "mast floats" you will find several of those bubble-type things.
Mast Floats and Catamaran Righting Gear from Sailsport Marine

The club I'm in uses them on the daysailers. They present some windage and will slow you down a bit, so on the racing MCs we have a flotation jacket that slides over the top of the sail.
07-10-2013 05:36 PM
mgoltsman
Re: Looking for a stable 15-18' sailboat

@TJC45 - thanks for the advice! Exactly the sort of thing I wanted to hear. I will still look at a Prindle 16 just to compare, but this is exactly what I hoped to hear - that H16 is not as unwieldy as its reputation, except when you taunt it. In terms of availability, H16 is certainly the easy answer - even in our quiet neck of the woods at least a dozen change hands each season. And the two that I saw so far look new despite being 30 years old!

By the way, the Wave I rented at a resort - being a noob boat - had this spiffy bubble on top of its mast to prevent turtling. Do you know if something like that is available/possible for the H16? My biggest fear is that I flip it, bungle my first attempt to right it and end up digging that long mast into the silt 20" under water.

One last thing - do you think being on the heavier side might make H16 less of a fit for me? Those hulls look pretty slim and wickedly sickle-shaped - seems like my 200 lbs plus another 200 libs worth of kids (of course I would not dream of racing with such a load) might submerge the tramp! What might be a great platform for a 150 lbs sailor might not be so fitting for a heavier crew!
07-10-2013 05:05 PM
TJC45
Re: Looking for a stable 15-18' sailboat

I've got a put a vote in for the H16. I've owned Hobie 16s for about 30 years. My current ride is 26 years old. This is the first thread in which I've ever heard anyone knock the quality of an H16. My boat has sailed thru it all from lakes to ocean, from screaming winds to get out the paddle. Even launched it off more breakers in Barnegat Inlet than I want to admit to and thru it all not one gear failure or boat problem. And, after all that time the boat still looks terrific!!!!

The H16 IS a stable platform. I taught my 4 kids to sail on it. That said, it is meant to be sailed to the edge of control. Because of this some might say the boat has some bad habits.

It will flip over- if you aren't flipping the boat on a regualr basis you aren't trying hard enough!!!! it is meant to be sailed fast and hard. if you sail it that way it's gonna go over every now and then. OTOH you don't have to sail it that way. For a three year period when my children were very young, the boat didn't flip once. Why didn't we flip the boat? Because we didn't sail it to the edge of control. We took fun family day sails. The boat's speed and heel angle are totally controlable. The point being, whoever is telling you the boat is unstable or has uncontrolable bad habits is not telling it like it is. The boat is almost half as wide as it is long. Stable it is!

The biggie in bad habits is the pitch pole. The boat can be pitch poled. Geez a Flying Scot can be pitchpoled! With the H16, again, controlable. In 30 years i can count how many times I've pitchpoled with two fingers. Does it happen? Yes! Is it a likely event? No! At least if you know how to avoid it. And it is easily avoidable in conditions that would cause it by triming the boat. We raced the boat for years ansd never tripped in a regatta racing it with the hammmer down! These days you can even buy attachments for the bows that will help prevent pitchpole. So pitch poling an H16 is a non starter in the for/against buy decision.

Hobie16 vs Prindle - Prindle is a fine boat as is the Nacra 5.2. But IMO, the H16 is more user friendly. Less sharp edges higher drier ride, more parts availability, easier set up, etc.

Beyond that the H16 is an excellent teaching platform. And of course it is a blast to sail!!!
This thread has more than 10 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:42 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.