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Pros and cons of steel sailboats

909K views 5K replies 127 participants last post by  Faster 
#1 ·
I'm thinking about making the leap from fiberglass to steel for our next sailboat. We want to do some far flung cruising - maybe even circumnavigate. Our present boat is a 1977 Tartan 37 and while we love it - since we've had a child and possibly will have another one on the way it might get a bit small for a liveaboard situation.
This summer I drove a big, old steel tour boat around the finger lakes and started thinking that steel might be a good way to get my family around the big marble.
I've spent a week in the Caribbean on a glorious aluminium boat but have never sailed a steel one, so I have lots of questions about their performance as cruising boats?
What are some of the better designers to keep and eye out for?
How good are they in the hot climates?
Are there any extra dangers in lightning?
Thanks for any and all advice you can give.
 
#609 · (Edited)
Oh, after a few minutes of google'ing I came across this stuff. It is supposed to be a non-stick marine coating. I am not sure if it is a slippery as crisco, but it probably is less fattening. This stuff is supposed to be good for long term and also prevents zebra muscles and what have you.

Marine Coating And Boat Bottom Paint From Ecological Coatings
 
#610 ·
Out:

I think it is pretty clear that you and I like the same kind of boats. I'd be happy to own your boat. I want performance. Some sailors don't know what that means. I do. You do. We can be an "elite" group. I am convinced that when we say "performance" that a sorry lot of crusing sailors have no clue what we are talking about. I will strive to change that.
 
#619 ·
Bob,

We all really appreciate your patience and your help in learning so much about why boats perform as they do, and the things to consider when we are looking at a boat to purchase.

I just wanted to take a minute to seriously say "Thank You.". You spend time here that you do not have to, you put up with a lot of repeated questions, crazy ideas, and a pretty fair amount of general stupidity and ignorance, all while keeping a great and very helpful attitude. We really appreciate all you do to help us learn about boat design, building, and the reason why things are done the way they are done.

I read a lot of books and texts and articles because I enjoy it, but one of my favorite things to read is the commentary you give on design here on sailnet.

So thank you Bob, please know that we do appreciate what you do to help us learn.
 
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#621 ·
Thanks Mark.
Where I live I have no "social life". So playing around here is my substitute for a social life. I enjoy contributing where I can. It makes me feel useful. I also like to help identify silly claims by people who don't know much about yacht design. I do enjoy a good argument.
 
#623 ·
"My boats have no problem pointing higher and sailing faster than many GRP boats."

What a silly thing to say.

I'd like a little more specificity on this. But if it came from BS I think it still would be BS considering his claim of his boats outrunning the racing fleet in San Diego. BS must think we are very stupid if he expects us to believe that.

I would never expect his boats to be fast boats and I can't imagine that is their primary purpose. I'm certain no one builds a BS boat for it's speed . His boats certainly have features that make them very attractive for a certain set of owners but speed is not one of them.

I do know a bit about boat speed. Just look up Swiftsure Race results for the past three years on all courses. My designs have been dominant. This is specific fact and not a silly fictitious claim.
 
#636 · (Edited)
"My boats have no problem pointing higher and sailing faster than many GRP boats."

What a silly thing to say.

I'd like a little more specificity on this. But if it came from BS I think it still would be BS considering his claim of his boats outrunning the racing fleet in San Diego. BS must think we are very stupid if he expects us to believe that.

I would never expect his boats to be fast boats and I can't imagine that is their primary purpose. I'm certain no one builds a BS boat for it's speed . His boats certainly have features that make them very attractive for a certain set of owners but speed is not one of them.

I do know a bit about boat speed. Just look up Swiftsure Race results for the past three years on all courses. My designs have been dominant. This is specific fact and not a silly fictitious claim.
Sure Bob. And what was the price tag on those boats and sails? Anything the average cruiser could afford? Anything under $35K? What was the draft? Anything practical for cruising? How big a crew do they require? Could they be handled by a couple? What were their annual maintenance costs? Did they have those bad seamanship, 24 inch high, extruded tinfoil stanchions?
I have yet to hear of a single innovation by Bob,to deal with the biggest hurdle cruisers face, time and money. His approach seems to be elitism, discouragement and obstructionism.
I once rafted alongside one of those "State of the art " racing boats in San Diego, called " Pandemonium" The keel fell off her, when she foolishly tried to make it to Hawaii.
 
#630 ·
I guess he thinks it sounds good.Hey I only spend about 15 minutes a year cleaning my body.Around Xmas/New years I'll take a quick splash, a little brush of the old teeth,maybe wipe me bum.I dont need anything frivilous or costly like laundry,I just stand out in the rain with my clothes on....never have to work at'tall or ever change yer socks an little streams of whiskey jus' come tumblin down the rocks.
 
#632 ·
Funny, how people who have never sailed my boats, claim to know more about how my boats sail to windward than people who actually sail them, then call others liars. Funny how people, who claim that a heavily varnished wooden boat is as easy to maintain as a painted one, then call those who challenge this claim, liars ?
Makes it obvious who the real liars are!
 
#642 ·
I do. Got my hand shaken and more compliments and invitations this summer than I can count. Anyone interested in steel boats, or simple cruising solutions in general , wants to pick my brain. Fortunately, living on a steel boat lets me sail away any time I choose. I sure wouldn't want to live at a fixed street address. That wouldn't give me any hermit time.
 
#643 ·
I have been in touch with steel boat owners for the last 40 years around here, and across the Pacific, etc.

Where can I find government documentation of everything you have been told over a lifetime.
Wikileaks?
Not yet!
 
#646 ·
That was in the 80s. I wasn't around when he sandblasted, or foamed. If you didn't get a picture of your self taking a crap, it has never happened?
Now that's analy retentive!
How about every day of your sailing experience? Those you don't have pictures of ,have never happened ?
Ya sure!
 
#648 ·
Okay, Brent, we can argue this all day long. Instead, I think it's better to open it up some...

A QUESTION TO READERS OF THIS THREAD:

If you are thinking about a building or sailing a steel boat - does what you see in this thread make you more or less confident in investing your time and money into a Brent Swain boat?
 
#651 · (Edited)
Not what Ive seen in this thread,No,but, Ive liked steel and wanted to learn to work it for awhile. I saw the Silas Crosby at Aquatic park when they stopped here a few years back.I found thier blog and have been following it since then.Its a great blog,Great trip,good photos,some vids.Steves an enjoyable writer and they seem to be enjoying the voyage and the boat.That blog alone could sell alot of plans for ya Brent.It gives a very realistic picture of what the boat is capable of.They have averaged 100 nm in 24 hours over the long haul which is what I would expect from a heavy, loaded 36 foot cruising boat.
His best DAYS run was 175 nm.Same with the Tagish circumnavigation blog.Nothing out the ordinary there either.They enjoy there boat and the cruise.I like the idea of origami construction.It peaked my curiosity.But I cant get around the look.The 31 has a nice sheer and a nice bow profile.It looks good in that 'John Deer' kind of way.Not pretty but "loyal" like she wont let ya down.The 36 sheer looks like its flat then rises in the middle like its hogged.Im not nockin John Deer by the way,I worked with a 1946 John Deer 2 cylinder diesel tractor in South Dakota( long story),That was an incredible machine.But I am a wood butcher at heart.I like wood.Forget all the fear mongering. I need my sub concious retrained like in the movie Inception. I see an old wood sailboat in the boat yard and I go into a trance,Like kid who finds a stray dog.My dream security team goes into action YOUR DREAMING!,RUN AWAY FROM THE OLD ROTTEN BOAT!.
Here a link to the Silas Crosby Blog
http://silascrosby.com/sail/
 
#649 ·
Come on you guys. We are being a bit hard on Brent. He has his thing and he has earned his thing. Some of us don't want it and we are insulted by some of his silly, and obviously false claims. He's a salesman selling plans to home builders. He's not the first and he's not the worst. I admire what he does, to a degree and I see the niche for it. I would prefer working with Brent than Bruce Roberts and I know Bruce quite well. Brent has extensive hands on experience with his build projects. Bruce does not. If I was building a boat of Brent's and had a problem I'm sure all I would have to do would be to shoot Brent an airline ticket, put himn up in the house for a couple of days and he would cut and weld my way out of trouble. He seems like that kind of guy. He probably charges a reasonable amount for his time and I'd gladly pay it if I were the client builder in trouble.

We have two colliding worlds here. And at this time I think I need to fall back on one of my very favorite movie quotes but let me paraphrase just a tad bit:

Janet, "I don't like steel boats."
Frankenfurter, "I didn't build it for you!"

God I hate trying to be a nice guy. But I know it's the adult thing to do.
 
#655 ·
While I admire Your restraint, I don't see why we can't ask for documentation to back up just a few of Brent's claims. Guessed his answer would be along the lines of "it happened in the 80's so have no Pictures", because we have seen NOTHING to back up his claims.
All we have seen are some rusting hulks destroying our reefs and Waters like Nuthin Wong.

So to answer SmackO's question:
A QUESTION TO READERS OF THIS THREAD:

If you are thinking about a building or sailing a steel boat - does what you see in this thread make you more or less confident in investing your time and money into a Brent Swain boat?
Based on what we have seen and heard in this (and other) threads re. Brent Swain boats I'd tell people to run away - not from steel, but from his boats.
 
#657 ·
If I was planning on building a boat for going cruising open endedly I would seriously investigate one of Brent's boats. He lives nearby so I could go to the source, sail on one of them, possibly even see one being folded up and so forth.

I've never been a big fan of conically developed boats because of all the corners but the origami process improves that a lot.

Nothing I've read here would send me running away. Brent is kind of messianic about his methods but that's O/K - it wouldn't degrade the boat in my view. Probably a lot of it is purely a defensive reaction to a lot of the more negative commentary here.

The bullet proof quality and the twin fin/beach-ability aspects have a definite appeal, as does the welded instead of bolted deck hardware - for that kind of use. I wouldn't particularly want one (steel) for local cruising.

Much of the negative opinion expressed here relates to the "workboat" aesthetics he prefers but that is easily remedied during construction - plenty simple to mount sleek hatches instead of submarine hatches and so forth.

The fact is that his boats have made many successful trans-oceanic voyages so there is no reason to dismiss the concept simply because Brent tends to stand on a fairly tall soap box.

I always enjoyed Speakers Corner in Hyde Park as well. ;)
 
#658 ·
"Brent is kind of messianic about his methods"

That doesn't bother me. It's the total BS (the mythical and non existant 28' custom Perry alu boat for instance) he posts about his boats and the constant attacks on anything that is not his product that indicates to me we are dealing with someone who has a very narrow perspective of yachting. If I were to work with someone I would prefer to work with someone who is a little more open minded.
 
#660 ·
And stating that you will survive a grounding just because it's built of steel, which is false and dangerous claims. Going to sea with that impression might be fatal, and the basis for my concerns.
If a Company - say medico - states that you can survive jumping off a bridge if you eat their latest pill, would you trust them and their other products?
 
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