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Pros and cons of steel sailboats

909K views 5K replies 127 participants last post by  Faster 
#1 ·
I'm thinking about making the leap from fiberglass to steel for our next sailboat. We want to do some far flung cruising - maybe even circumnavigate. Our present boat is a 1977 Tartan 37 and while we love it - since we've had a child and possibly will have another one on the way it might get a bit small for a liveaboard situation.
This summer I drove a big, old steel tour boat around the finger lakes and started thinking that steel might be a good way to get my family around the big marble.
I've spent a week in the Caribbean on a glorious aluminium boat but have never sailed a steel one, so I have lots of questions about their performance as cruising boats?
What are some of the better designers to keep and eye out for?
How good are they in the hot climates?
Are there any extra dangers in lightning?
Thanks for any and all advice you can give.
 
#828 · (Edited)
Bob
I spend as much time as I please, in a place where the consumer religious rich work all year to spend three weeks in. Then they all go home, to earn the money needed, to make payments on the kind of boats and gear you advocate, while I continue to cruise, enjoying all the now empty anchorages they have abandoned, to follow your advice. Been doing this since my mid 20's. Just spent the summer swimming, sailing in some good winds, fishing , eating ice cream and chicken burgers venison steak, wild plums and blackberries etc. etc., and sailing with some beautiful charming and intelligent young ladies, who keep coming back, year after year. Have nothing else on the agenda for the foreseeable future. Never had a bank debt . Never paid a penny of bank interest directly, in my life. I travel first class on space ship earth, in the best place on the planet, in the best time in human history. So don't get too concerned for my happiness. I wouldn't change places with anyone else on the planet; I envy no one!
I do like to steer others toward the lifestyle I enjoy, and warn them about scammers trying to convince them that the pretentious "Yachty" ways, which keeps so many in debt, and tied to the dock , are their only option. I just have a low ," Just throw money at it " Bull****t threshold.
This is not grumpy, just a form of chess.
Checkmate!
 
#830 ·
Brent I have zero concern for your happiness. Couldn't care a less. I just can't understand how someone so "happy" can be so angry and defensive on this site. You own your own words. You are in the perpetual attack mode.

I take a live and let live attitude. My world has room for all sorts of boats. I just like boats. Your attitude seems to be "sail my way or you are an idiot". I can't count the times you have said things to that effect here.
 
#834 ·
Smackenheimer:
I can't see this happening. It'll be like me waiting for the BS documentation showing my boats have "vanished at sea without a trace" or the BS weight study. It ain't gonna hoppen. BS makes stuff up. Next move is that BS will conveniently change ths subject.

How about those Seahawks, unbeaten in pre-season. Yahoooooo!

I hope he takes you up on this. It will be fun to watch. But do you, in your wildest dreams, think BS can build a block with the same look as the Garhauer?
 
#835 · (Edited)
If he can make some pretty blocks I'm in. Have had several of those shiny ones blow up on me over the years. Seems the old plastic girl is stronger then the blocks. I had to go back to the original teak blocks one time when I didn't have a new shiny spare.

Maybe we could have an Ice Cream Social at Bob's place and compare blocks? I'll bring the Hokey Pokey.

PS: I need a new triple block that fits 1/2 to 5/8 line for the main sheet. The TINY pin connecting the block to the shackle has lost it's head...Thanks Schaeffer....
 
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#837 ·
I thought a small challenge would be in order. Somthing we could enjoy while having an ice cream. Reminds me of an old ice cream ad " Are you a Licker or a Biter?
 
#842 ·
Jon:
Those boats are pushed to limits that the typical cruiser doesn't know exist. We need guys out there, young guys, to push the boats so we can learn and find out out to design better boats. They don't call it the "cutting edge" for nothing.

As my old boss Dick Carter used to say about race boats, "If it doesn't break it was over built."

It's not fair to hold Brent to the Garhauer aesthetic. He should just come close. But he has left the building. When things get real BS is hard to find.
 
#843 · (Edited)
Many morbidly obese skippers, buy expensive blocks, to reduce the weight on deck by a few ounces. ( Yacht club logic?) They could far more easily find the source of weight on deck, by taking a look in the mirror.
Bob, your quote of Carter explains exactly why cruisers should not get their gear and advice from the racing folks, and those who cater to them, and their priorities.
Anyone who can build a boat, can build a block ( Furler , anchor winch, anchors , etc etc)
Where do I send the Brent block ( as soon as the money arrives) How do I know $11 will cover the shipping?
I have a life beyond the internet( unlike some) I am cruising ( you know, the stuff this site talks about, but few actually do most of the time, while telling those who do, that we have it all wrong)
As I point out in my book, you can judge the value of advice from what it has done fort he person offering it. If you wan to spend your entire day, telling people, who actively cruise most of the time, that they have it all wrong, while rarely cruising yourself , them Bob and Smack are your best source . If you want to be able to cruise 11 months a year from your mid 20's, then it would not be wise to get your advice from anyone who has never accomplished that. Cruising dreams suffer the death of a thousand cuts. While buying small things like blocks new, wont kill the dream, carrying that thinking thruout the project will add up to costs that definitely will, and too often has. Best nip such thinking in the bud, and treat any suggestion that the "Yotty" way is your only option, with the scepticism and distain it deserves, given how many cruising dreams it has killed.

Found an internet café, far better than the pub, where the smoke from the leper colony (Smoking section ) doesn't blow in.
 
#854 · (Edited)
Where do I send the Brent block ( as soon as the money arrives) How do I know $11 will cover the shipping?
I have a life beyond the internet( unlike some) I am cruising ( you know, the stuff this site talks about, but few actually do most of the time, while telling those who do, that we have it all wrong)
Sweet! So we're on!

First, though - you really do need work on your math. I said $11 plus shipping. That means that the shipping is in addition to the the $11 that is for the block. See? No.

Ahm, how about this...

Block: $11
Shipping: X
Total: $11 + X
X is the variable that you will provide when you have it. Then we can complete the equation.

Now do you see? No.

Man, this is hard. Screw it...

Just give me your mailing address and I'll immediately send you USD $11 (cash money) to pre-pay your BrentBlock that will be equivalent to/better than the Garhauer, then whatever else you need for shipping said BrentBlock (you can just post the cost of the shipping here when you get it - just make sure it's the cheap option) I'll send that to you as well. Then you can send me the block (I will obviously assume all the risk in the transaction).

We'll document the whole thing here so it's on the up-and-up. So make sure to ask one of your many friends to video you while you make this block to confirm the "$2/20-minute" promise. That will be awesome. AND you can use it for marketing your blocks!

Let's do it, bro!
 
#844 ·
"Many morbidly obese skippers, buy expensive blocks, to reduce the weight on deck by a few ounces. ( Yacht club logic?)"

There you go again with that BS judgementalist ethic. I think you are projecting again Brent.

The Carter quote is made half jokingly as anyone with a sense of humor could guess.

I spent a very nice and very busy morning with my new client Dave working on his new 42'er. It will be composite. I showed him the pics of the BS blocks. That is certainly NOT what he wants regardless of how long they last. He chuckled at the thought.

I'm not ready to post drawings yet. Mind you, the preliminary drawings are very nice but the boat is not ready to meet the public yet. I still have some fine tuning to do. the client is a builder of homes but not a "homebuilder". This is the third design I have done for him. We will have the boat built at a major yacht building yard. It will be a very beautiful boat.
 
#845 ·
....
I'm not ready to post drawings yet. Mind you, the preliminary drawings are very nice but the boat is not ready to meet the public yet. I still have some fine tuning to do. the client is a builder of homes but not a "homebuilder". This is the third design I have done for him. We will have the boat built at a major yacht building yard. It will be a very beautiful boat.
Looking forward to the day it is ready to meet the public..

btw, sadly saw 'Wild Horses' sitting on her rudder, bow down at Jedidiah Island in early August. Hopefully no serious damage was done. There was not much wind or wave action.

one more btw, (slightly off topic, I know) do you know, Bob, how many Reliance 37s were built?
 
#848 ·
Brent, this guy isn't waiting. He's doing it. Cost of the boat will be above $500,00 and under $600,000. I know that just pisses you off but too bad. That's your personal problem. Some people have the money and enjoy spending it things that make them happy. I'm glad they come to me. I can give them the boat they dream of. That's why this client came back.

Faster: WH has a big strong all alu spade rudder. I hope they get off without damage.
I guess they pulled a Swain. Probably saw one of BS's boats on the rocks and said to themselves, "Hey, that looks like fun. Let's try it."

I have no idea how many Reliance 37's were built. That was a long time ago and they were a dicey bunch. I suspect maybe 6 hulls were built. The project was owned by two partners that didn't stay partners very long. I have only known one owner, a German fellow who used to come to the Rendezvous. His boat was yellow. He was heading off cruising the last time I spoke to him. As I recall he was a ski designer with one of the major companies. He brought me a beautful pair of new skis one year. I still have them.
 
#849 ·
Last few days it's been raining with T storms, or fog and no wind. Not much fun to sail in that stuff. So the bride and I have been cleaning the boat and organizing (? re organizing) stuff. Had the AC on for awhile to kill the humidity and the webasto at night when it got cold . Watched the movie about Bob Dylan on the flat screen and listened to tunes from the Ipad while reading. Cooked some wonderful food and had a grand time although stuck in one place. Even had our slip neighbors over for drinks and some chuckles. Were pigs with fresh water. You would have loved it Brent. We broke every rule you have so you would have felt free. (Still have a couple of good cigars -they go well with single malt)Totally agree the stars are no brighter if you have money in your pocket or none. Still, being a fat old man why can't I have some fun? Why do you project such hate toward folks who have worked hard all their lives and are now trying to enjoy the fruit of their labor. ?Are you jealous or just a misanthrope.
 
#851 ·
Thanks Bob-I've never understood why some folks don't feel the joy of watching other folks having fun. I smile to see a kid playing in the sand, or the new owner who was by the travel lift last week watching his custom yacht getting wet for the first time ( something I could never afford). It doesn't matter. There's so much sadness in the world. Enjoying someone else's joy is a blessing. In the 1700's a common greeting was "I give you joy of the day" even Maturin said it. It makes me smile.
 
#853 ·
As the proud owner of an archaic wooden gaffer with home made teak blocks (and all her other parts too) I've followed the thread with reluctant fascination.Regardless of hull materiel, I often see more modern designs dragging their rudders while the center of effort and center of lateral resistance go off in different directions ,sort of like a one handled wheel barrow.(hard to steer)As for the general trend of this thread, reminds me of a rendezvous at a bar in Venezuela.back in '68. Big mamma had made her availability known . The boys at the table couldn't decide who was first. They just laid their goods on the table and Momma took her pick.Seems like that method could go a long ways to settle the pros and cons here..
 
#856 · (Edited)
Holy Cow! I just found a BrentBoat - perfect and rust-free, of course - actually under sail in the conditions Brent most prefers for his boats:



Ah, cruising.

Here are the lyrics to the soundtrack:

Come and listen to a story 'bout a man named Brent
A poor yacht designer who a penny never spent
Then one day hooked his rusty to a truck
And sailed across the prairie yelling "Perry's Yachts Suck!"

Steel that is. China prime. Environmental Bigfoot.

Now the first thing you know ol' Brents a hundredaire.
Floatin' in perfection with rocky road and pickled bear
DVDs said "Cruise the world for next to free"
So they loaded up a welder and moved to Poverty,

Hills that is. Rusting hulks, tow trucks…
 
#859 ·
:laugher I wonder how old the YOUNGEST person is here who knows the music to those lyrics? ;)

Watching that video I can't help thinking - if it slides across a grassy field that easily, it must slip through the water pretty easily. :D
 
#858 ·
I've been trying to keep up with this thread and have read as much of it as I could bring myself to.
I bought and read the BS book and had a good time reading it. While it is unlikely I will ever build or own a BS boat, unless I got divorced, I found it a great read.

I will probably scan in the whole book and add it to my Kindle for when we go cruising.
Will I ever build a BS Block or a BS windless etc. Probably not. It is kind of fun to imagine doing so however. It reminds me of a simpler time when with a few tools a guy could make anything.

It makes me feel more confident that if someday I get stuck on some outback island and break something I have a guide to encourage me to find a local fellow with a welder and have him fabricate what I need to perhaps make a weather window.

I can see anyone of a half dozen of Bret's gear designs coming in handy in a pinch.

It doesn't matter to me if it takes someone 20 minutes or a couple of hours to build a block. What matters is that it is possible and that it will do the job.

I'm more than willing to give Bret a little leeway on hyperbola in reference to how long it takes to make things and how long they last.

I just enjoy seeing the creativity of using simple cheap material to make something that works.

The value in his designs in my opinion is in re-opening our eyes to the possibilities of making functional stuff ourselves.

That is valuable information.

His passion for what he does is just an added bonus.
 
#860 ·
Too funny- Smack you missed your calling.

Still think I'll carry a few extra snatch blocks and a couple of no stretch lines twice as long as the longest line on my boat. Also have one extra of the main blocks for major working lines ( only spec'd two sizes to make that easier to do). Also have a couple of those new fangled low friction eyes to lash anywhere. I spec'd all the working lines on my boat to be extra long and will reverse the way they are lead yearly. They're long enough so if I see wear I can eliminate that section and replace when available. Carry fids.Time is precious. It's something you can't buy or replace. Have no interest in spending time on something I can avoid spending time on. Rather be sailing.
 
#863 ·
Here's some of the "cons".

Went down to Seattle this morning to finalize the bootstripe on FRANCIS LEE. With the boat being so narrow you can see almost the entire bootstripe from any angle so it extremely important that the lines defining the boot stripe be absolutely fair. If it were a fat boat you couldn't see one end from the other so it would really mean there was a far greater tolerance of overall fainess for any stripe. But we have a lovely, skinny boat so these details are critical, at least to my eye and the owner's eye.

Mission accomplished. No droops or kinks or "weirdnesses" in the stripe anymore. It took about 30 minutes working with the very patient painter who also has a great eye. He has done a marvelous job painting this boat.
Check out the reflections in the topsides.
 

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#864 ·
Faster:
You were mistaken. I spoke to the owner of WILD HORSES last night and she said they have been in the slip for two weeks. You must have seen another spectacularily good looking boat on the rocks.

Please look more carefully the next time. You scared me. I don't like that.
 
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