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Pros and cons of steel sailboats

909K views 5K replies 127 participants last post by  Faster 
#1 ·
I'm thinking about making the leap from fiberglass to steel for our next sailboat. We want to do some far flung cruising - maybe even circumnavigate. Our present boat is a 1977 Tartan 37 and while we love it - since we've had a child and possibly will have another one on the way it might get a bit small for a liveaboard situation.
This summer I drove a big, old steel tour boat around the finger lakes and started thinking that steel might be a good way to get my family around the big marble.
I've spent a week in the Caribbean on a glorious aluminium boat but have never sailed a steel one, so I have lots of questions about their performance as cruising boats?
What are some of the better designers to keep and eye out for?
How good are they in the hot climates?
Are there any extra dangers in lightning?
Thanks for any and all advice you can give.
 
#914 ·
Bob,

I'm sorry but obviously you have some facts wrong. From another forum...

With the number of big logs around , BC plastic boat cruisers are afraid to sail at night. That is why steel boats are so popular around here, especially mine.
Surely you and your sailing friends are nowhere near the treacherous northwestern coast of our fair continent. Otherwise, you would have ALL heard of him and been frantically building your own BrentYachts to survive the deadhead onslaught.
 
#918 · (Edited)
"BC plastic boat cruisers are afraid to sail at night. "

Brent, do you really believe this?
You do need to get out more.

Poor fragile little Westsail, can't sail at night?

Ok 32'er. Who cares, it was totally BS statement. I can dig up your comments if I have to. But they were really silly and a clear case of your perspective on reality.

Hey, lets have some fun:
Brent how about posting one of your hull lines drawings.
I'll show you mine if you shw me yours.
I'd love to see how you actually control the design of those shapes.
Make it quick though. I think I'll go fishing soon. Coho are running.
 
#926 · (Edited)
Amazing what a drum of bondo will do! I knew of a very fair round bilged Brewer design which used two 45 gallon drums of filler
You can read any British magazine and they refer to all fibreglass boats as GRP, which means "Glass Reinforced "PLASTIC". What part of "Plastic" do you not understand?
When the strength of my boats was questioned, I mentioned what some have survived, such as 16 days pounding on a west coast Baja lee shore in 8 to 12 ft surf for 16 days , pounding across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef, in big surf, then being dragged back over it by a tug, undamaged, a collision with a freighter, again undamaged,( as documented in "around the World on Viski") then a single season trip thru the NW passage ( as documented in "The NW Passage on Ten Dollars a Day " By George Hone and" Arctic Odysey",by Len Sherman) again undamaged. Bob's response? Did he give us similar trials which his boats have survived? No way , he implied that boats should not be made so strong, because if they were not that strong ,those trials would never have happened! Now that is an indication of someone with zero cruising experience. Changing the subject is an admission you have no relevant argument to make!
So no Perry design has ever gone aground, or been lost or damaged by accident ? Accidents simply don't happen to your designs, as fate would never DARE damage any boat with YOUR name on it? No one need ever worry about anything ever DARING TO damage one of YOUR designs? Do you put that guarantee in writing for all your clients, as an excuse for why they should rest assured that nothing will ever damage or sink any of your designs, so survivability is irrelevant, as long as they are sailing one of YOUR designs?
So give us a rundown Bob, of all the weeks of pounding on lee shores in big surf that your boats have survived, undamaged ,coral reefs they have pounded over, and collisions they have survived, relatively undamaged. Or are you again going to weasel out, by claiming that strength is irrelevant in cruising boats, because if they are flimsy enough, that wont ever happen?

My boats survive by well proven design, with decades of track record of surviving extreme challenges, and the toughest material for boatbuilding available. Bob's depend on "COSMIC KARMA." Which would you prefer to risk colliding with Fukashima debris in? Which would YOU choose to risk your crew and family in?
 
#925 · (Edited)
Nice lines! You definitely have a good set of eyes for shape, the best in the business.The first one looks like better hull balance than the second one. Don't have much faith in fig leaf rudders tho. Raking them aft reduces their efficiency , style over substance.
No, I don't give my designs away for free. I haven't been charging the exorbitant rates you charge, to enable me to afford to do that, at this point in time.
 
#922 ·
I am presently sailing a " Tupperware Boat" ...Although the number of dead heads and low floaters has been reduced by bundle booms and self dumping barges they are probably more common then submergered containers...A steel boat or a good lookout is required in the PNW...
 
#923 ·
......... a good lookout is required in the PNW...
THat is ALL one needs in the salish sea. "A good look out" If not, then if you hit a log at something over planing speeds, or say 15-20 knots in a power boat, or one of them Icon thing a ma bobs, then maybe a log will hole you! Then again, maybe not depending upon how you hit said log.........

Hitting a log is not something I worry about in my "plastic" boat! Heck, not too many folks are worried about hitting logs in there hypalon/grp bottom boats! so I need a steelie because why?

Marty
 
#924 ·
I've hit a few logs over the years. Hard enough to get your attention. I have hit rocks even harder, much harder. I have pretty much always been sailing grp boats. I have never had a log put a hole in the boat or stop the day's fun. Just a bump in the night and then on with the fun.

Brent seems to live in a dangerous world where the elements are all conspiring to to attack his boats. Cosmic karma?
 
#928 ·
Another huge advantage of steel boats is they eliminate the need for keel bolts, and all the worries about hidden corrosion they cause. Sure, some plastic boats have inside ballast, but that has its liabilities as well. I remember in 74, seeing a plastic boat hauled out in Auckland, which once had inside ballast . There was a clean break where the top of the ballast had been glassed over. The ballast was on St Hellier's reef, which it had hit.
Neither that , nor keel bolt failure is possible in a well built steel boat.
 
#929 · (Edited)
Brent you are such an angry little guy.

You have no idea what you are talking about re rudder post rake and no experience with designing spade rudders to back up any of your BS theories.

Fairness:
Look at your boats. There is not a fair spot on the entire hull of any of them that I have seen. They are lumpy, bumpy and very crude looking. Agricultural in qualty at best.

Lines:
Waiting to see some of your lines Brent . But if past performance is any gauge you won't post any but instead you will endeavor to change the subject by launching other random attacks. We have seen this time and time again. It's the BS way.

I'm still waiting for some photos of beautiful BS designs. Surely you have some to post. I have lots more.

" he implied that boats should not be made so strong, because if they were not that strong ,those trials would never have happened!"
Where do you get this BS, BS? You continue to make things up when it pleases you. That's called not being honest. You are getting desperate.


Playing in the new band with Larry tonight in Everett. Larry has been cruising his Passport 40 for three years. The boat is now in Annapolis and Larry is back home. It's amazing that Larry actually survived cruising for three years in one of my boats. But he did and he enjoyed it.

So save your angry, "the sky is falling" gloom and doom BS, BS. I have a lot of people sailing my boats who are doing just fine.

If you doubt my boats can do it Brent I suggest younstudy this. Memorize it. It might do you good. When you are done I can give you lots more like it. Mark Sxchaeder even did it again in one of my other designs. He likes them. Do you really think I got to be where I am by making stuff up like you do? Silly Brent.

In the words of John Kretschmer, noted yachting author:
This boat made its debut on the sailing scene in the mid '70s and subsequently altered the attitudes of performance cruisers everywhere. Can you identify it?

"OK, dear readers, I hope you didn't stop by Sailnet looking for fun, or even some modest enlightenment about how to do something on or with your boat. Nope, today it's time to test your sailboat IQ. We are going back in history a bit, but not too far, about 30 years ago, to the birth of an American classic. Ready or not, here we go.

What boat launched the storied career of naval architect Bob Perry? What boat is usually considered the first performance cruiser? What boat did Mark Schrader sail on his 1983 epic circumnavigation south of the five great capes? What boat was named “cruiser of the decade,” by Sail Magazine in 1980 and inducted into the Sailboat Hall of Fame in 1997? What boat did Francis Stokes sail in the 1976 and 1980 OSTARs? What boat epitomized the dreaded “pox,” that came to haunt the fiberglass boatbuilding industry in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s? What boat—and this one needs an asterisk—has been in continuous production longer than other? What boat is built today on an inland lake, a long way from the ocean? What boat represents one of the best buys on the used boat market for blue water cruising? By now you've either quit reading and clicked over to something more interesting or likely figured out that this is a trick quiz and there is only one answer. If your answer is the legendary Valiant 40, you're right and that means you really know you boats. Or, like me, you're just getting older."

Thanks John.
 
#930 ·
A foggy moonless night?!?! well, Doubt I would be going fast enough to worry about a log frankly! Probably 2-3 knots. I've hit a few logs or equal at that speed, so far so good! Then again, only a matter of time?!?!?!?!?

Have to admit, you do seem a bit angry or something as Bob says. Here I thought my Ex was an angry beetch!

ANY boat being used on the water that time, is a good boat! some are made for one purpose, other another, still yet, others for another reason! I have felt there is NO BEST boats since I was a mid single digit aged punk if you will, unlimited hydro's were king in seattle at the time. Oh those pistons sounded good. Have to admit, once you get used to the whine of a turbine, those sound KEWL too! Then again, sailing with only water sounds and air noise around you, assuming you can hear those sounds.....that is nice too. Be it a dinghy, mid teen daysailer in sloop form, maybe one of them highspeed formula 40 cats, ala DragonFly! or ______________<fill in the blank>!!!

So I am here at home playing on sailnet, when it is sunny, mid 70''s, nice north wind instead of being on my unsafe plastic boat because why? or in my 14' plastic canoe paddling!...........

Marty
 
#933 ·
lets see, which winery.....I know of at least 2 dozen in woodinville along, from st michelle, to columbia to multitudes of smaller ones. Know of two here in Edmonds, there is olympic near pa.....oh boy! this hurts the brain electron a LOT! remembering all them places to drink wine at.......oh boy ohboy ohboy.........
 
#935 ·
Brent,

This guy seems to have combined both the Origami method (with the fewer welds) with wood frames (not permanent to boat as would be welded rib and stringer frame) to assure shape and computer program to define the shape.



I noticed that the boat he is building is a modern design. All of the pictures of your boats that I have seen seem to be older designs. Lots of people have described your boats as not being pretty, but part of that is probably that your designs look dated (at least to my eye). Dated or modern, either way, people can cruise them.

Using your exact method, could you build a modern looking boat....like that one in the video? Just thinking, if you can, and you were to update your designs, you'd have a bigger market. Maybe some collaboration with the computer expert that was mentioned in the video might be a quick way to do it.

Sorry if my comments above are out of line....in such case, please disregard.
 
#937 · (Edited)
Okay - I'm mystified. It seems Brent is weaseling out of The Great Block Test of 2013:

+++++++++

From another forum...

Nice looking block. Not your average $30 Lewmar. More like $95 each. Carry that kind of thinking thru a whole boat building and outfitting process, and you will never leave home, deleting the reason for building a boat in the first place , like Smack has always done ,or advocated.
A friend has some Schafer yachty type blocks, he will trade me for one of mine. I will do the test, and have him video it, then post it here and elsewhere. He will be better off with one of mine. He knows that !
Brent, you're backing out now? Schaefers aren't Garhauers. So you're lowering the bar bro. You still haven't told me where to send the money for the block. Why is that? I'm starting to wonder if you're a little worried.

Oh, and you need to read more carefully. The Garhauer I spec'd above is less than $22.

Single Blocks with Adjustable Shackle
25-13 US - Stainless Steel Blocks
length: 4-1/4 width: 2
weight: 5 oz shackle: 3/16
sheave diameter: 1-3/4

Comes with set screw to make it fixed shackle. Safe working load is 1150 lbs.

$21.42
That's why I offered you $11 for one of yours...1/2 the price of the Garhauer. It's a tremendous profit for you. And I'm ready to send you the money. So? Are you going to pony up? Or weasel out?

++++++++++++++++

Surely Brent's not this scared. He seemed so confident in his product. Hmm.
 
#938 ·
Back from my gig. Music was good.

Bent seems to fade away when you ask for any reality.

He does far better when he can make up is own facts.

I'm still waiting for four nice looking BS boats. That is really sad that BS can't proviide four nice looking boats I can provide countless. Countless.
 
#939 · (Edited)
Don't worry Bob. Brent will do the block thing. He makes an insanely good profit and the block he sends me crushes the Garhauer, once again proving him right. There's just absolutely no reason not to do it. Well, okay, there's the fact that not doing it would prove you right. But that won't be an issue. He's very confident in his work - it's been proven again and again over decades. Absolutely no downside.

Here's another thing I love about Brent:

Nice lines! You definitely have a good set of eyes for shape, the best in the business.The first one looks like better hull balance than the second one. Don't have much faith in fig leaf rudders tho. Raking them aft reduces their efficiency , style over substance.
"You're the best in the business. Now let me tell you what's wrong with your work."
 
#943 ·
Brent- just got into Newport r.i. Myboat's in the show. Coming down hit something at 8.4 kts. About 4' square white thingy about one foot below the surface. In the chop didn't see it until it passed under the stern.
Amazing thing no damage to hull or rudder. Although it made a big thunk. Didn't sink or be swallowed by a whale either.
 
#946 ·
FWIW I have done a lot of boating in the last 60+ years and I have hit floating and semi-floating objects VERY HARD in traditional wood boats, contemporary composite wood boats (cold molded West System), solid glassfiber boats, balsa cored glassfiber boats and an aluminum boat. Never took a drop of water in any of the incidents.

Speeds involved were:
Aluminum 35 knots (powerboat)
West System 20 knots (powerboat)
Solid Glass 8 knots (sailboat)
Cored Glass 8 knots (sailboat)
Wood 7 knots (sailboat)

From what I have read composite construction can be stronger than steel pound for pound. Of all of the incidents I have experienced the West System boat felt the strongest.

I am sure steel is strong, but given all of the other issues with steel it would not be my first choice for a boat building material. I think when taking all aspects of boat building material into account I would always chose some sort of epoxy composite material (as we have done on the Francis Lee project.)

People vote with their dollars on boats, having owned and/or operated vessels built of just about every boat building material there is, I vote for epoxy composite construction.

You are of course free to vote however you so chose.

(The only time I ever hit something and took on water was when I ripped an outdrive off hitting an unseen submerged object. That was the only insurance claim I have ever had in 60+ years of boating.)

Kim
 
#948 · (Edited)
(The only time I ever hit something and took on water was when I ripped an outdrive off hitting an unseen submerged object. That was the only insurance claim I have ever had in 60+ years of boating.)
It was probably a BrentBoat you hit. According to a friend, one was sitting just beneath the water on a rock (submarine-mode) in that area waiting for low tide about the time you mention. Dry as bone inside of course. The owner was having ice cream. You probably mistook the mast for a channel marker pylon or old tree and cut it too close.

Just goes to show how strong BrentBoats are. Ripped your flimsy outdrive right out. The BrentBoat didn't have a scratch once it surfaced and moved to another rock the next day when the towtruck driver came and hitched it back up.

60+ years is impressive, but with all due respect, I notice you don't have steel on your list of past boat materials. So you can't possibly understand the merits of Swaintology.
 
#947 ·
I ran my Mercedes into a ditch one night and did a lot ot damage.

Out: Beware the delayed reaction. You could have festering wounds to your laminate that you can't see.

Honestly I'm glad your alive to tell the tale. Going to sea in that flimsy boat? You should be ashamed of yourself.
 
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