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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > The Ocean is broken? really?
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Thread: The Ocean is broken? really? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
11-16-2013 03:43 PM
vega1860
Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

I think the author is exaggerating...

Slightly.

We have sailed across the North Pacific several times since 1999. Most recently in the summer of 2012. Although even on our first crossing from Vancouver to Kona in 1999 there was debris in the water, there was more each time we crossed. Sailing from San Francisco to Hawaii two months after the tsunami we sighted a fair amount and in 2012 we sailed right through the garbage patch and documented the alarming amount of debris in video and photographs.

As for trawling: It is, of course, a horribly wasteful and destructive practice. Here in Alaska, most processors will not buy trawl-caught fish. The practice should certainly be banned world wide.

I don't think the sea is broken. She is a living thing, wounded, and will heal if allowed to.
11-12-2013 02:06 PM
tdoster
Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

Between 2005 and 2010, corn farmers increased their use of nitrogen fertilizer by more than one billion pounds. More recent data isn't available from the Agriculture Department, but because of the huge increase in corn planting, even conservative projections by the AP suggest another billion-pound fertilizer increase on corn farms since then.

The secret, dirty cost of Obama's green power push (insert any Presidents Name in place - That is just the title of the article as it really has nothing to do with person or political party and don't want to bring that to the discussion)
11-12-2013 07:06 AM
Sal Paradise
Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

It seems the drone thing is well underway... from today's NY Times.

oceandronesplumbnewdepths
11-08-2013 11:38 AM
Tallswede
Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

I know the state of Texas has been collecting a fee recently from drillers to clean up old wells. They are currently doing much cleanup of old wells and platforms in Galveston Bay east of the Kemah/Clear Lake area. Local boaters have helped to spearhead these efforts by documenting and locating abandoned sites. Texas has gotten some of the owners of these sites to do the cleanups and old sites where the owners have not been found due to going out of business the fees have paid for the cleanup. More work to be done for sure but it is happening and the state needs the co-operation and effort from locals to identify and report these sites.

Kevin
11-08-2013 09:53 AM
tdoster
Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal Paradise View Post
How is my personal responsibility going to stop a giant trawler from destroying the bottom of the bay and the fish habitat? Realistically?
My .02 on that... Video that Trawler and the damage it does. Document it with proof and post it on the internet and pass it to the authorities. Things we couldn't do as individuals 20 years ago we can do today. Take time out of your life to get involved instead of expecting someone else will do it for you. Just about everyone of us walk around with cameras and video recorders 24 hours a day. Put it in focus...

Almost everyone lies at some point in their lives, but no one wants to get caught in one.
11-08-2013 09:39 AM
tdoster
Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

OK, you are right. I went astray a bit, so let's bring it back a notch.

But first what is the most powerful motivation for people? Emotion, right? If I am a politician, I will try and make you hate the other guy and his policies because anger is the best political motivator. Using Empathy via the anger emotion to invoke a reaction.

Then there is the other side. Using Sympathy. Put a commercial on TV to save the animals or kids with visuals and words designed to pull directly at our heart strings and use sympathy to invoke a reaction.

What does my diatribe have to do with the topic at hand? Simple. The best ways to change are to identify the problem and invoke an emotional reaction. I don't agree with the tactics of Sea Shepard's, but a handful of people identify big problems and invoke public reactions. I admire them for their compassion and dedication and shedding light on the problems. Companies are more likely to react positively to views of the masses then they are regulations. Those views can create regulations, but we have to be careful not to over regulate or more importantly, not lose the spirit of the law as we are defining and redefining the letter of the law.

Killing of Dolphin in making Tuna - Regulation, or emotion and Corporate Response?

If you look at the power a small group can have if they are using both empathy (a logical argument that we can relate to and affects us personally) and sympathy (an argument that makes us feel bad about doing the wrong thing and good about doing the right thing), you will see more examples of little people doing big things as individuals and small groups than actual government regulation sans me giving hundreds of examples that come immediately to mind.

So, my long-winded point is there is great power in the individual and community organizer. Some even say you could go from community organizer to President of the United States, but that would be crazy talk.

And YES, if the EPA is collecting fees that are designed to clean up messes that happened 50 years ago, they should use those funds to do so. OR my point was let Exon clean up 3 old platforms that were put there by XYZ Company that is out of business before allowing them to build 1 of their own instead of paying a fee to the general fund that still does nothing for cleaning up the thousands of abandoned platforms in the GoM.

The problem as I see it, my friend, is that we are good at creating laws and regulations with good intent. But we are terrible at keeping the Spirit of the Law alive as they continue to add to the Letter of the Law. And many times it hurts the good, while the bad still disregard or find loopholes around it.

You have great points and I truly appreciate your opinion. I don't disagree with you - It is very difficult to solve these problems at the root, so we have to pull the weeds one leaf at a time until the root dies on it's own or we pick at it long enough to get it all.

So, maybe me picking up a cigarette butt in front of the guy who threw it out won't change the world - but just maybe it will change his attitude and hopefully perpetuate from there...
11-07-2013 09:48 PM
Sal Paradise
Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

How is my personal responsibility going to stop a giant trawler from destroying the bottom of the bay and the fish habitat? Realistically?
11-07-2013 09:19 PM
jwing
Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdoster View Post
Somalia is a bad example as it is a case of anarchy...
I maintain that is why Somalia is a good example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdoster View Post
So, wouldn't you rather be out doing something as an individual and hope that other individuals watch and learn from you then lose every freedom you have because you will need to be regulated when there are only a couple corporations and large government running things when we can no longer trust the individual.
I think you over-reached a bit here and muddled up your point. Yes, as an individual I have walked my talk. And yes, in an ideal world, others would view me as a brilliant, supremely likable guy and emulate me. But it would not be enough; my sphere of influence is very small.

Now let's consider corporations. By law in the USA, corporations are legally bound to maximize shareholder value. If it is not illegal for a corporation to dump its effluent into the ocean, and if dumping effluent is less costly than treating it and disposing it in a non-toxic manner, then the corporation MUST dump it; that is the law. If we make the dumping illegal, than the corporation can do the right thing and treat the waste properly.

Your other point about our slide into the abyss of corporatocracy is a concern that is beyond this discussion, but I caution you that you may be arguing against yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdoster View Post
If the Government is going to collect a fee or tax that was created to provide a specific function, then they should use it for that. The problem with new regulations, taxes, etc. is they rarely stay true to the intent. All things start with good intentions, but almost always end up tainted.
OK. So what is the solution? It still sounds to me like you want government to take on the role of janitor and janitor's bill collector (via regulation) while corporations and actual human beings make as much of a mess as they can get away with.

One thing that anti-government ideologues (I consider myself among you) need to understand is that practically nobody wants regulations for the sake of regulating or taking power away from individuals. Regulations are only needed when people by their own free will, infringe on the rights or safety of other people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdoster View Post
I don't know anything in the Constitution of the United States that says oil belongs to all the people. That sounds like Karl Marx talking.
Oh c'mon, man - you can do better than that. It's a plain fact that offshore oil deposits are federal property. Plus, the comment has nothing to do with regulating polluters.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tdoster View Post
But with all this regulation and tax, it does not belong to the people, it belongs to the Government. If I don't pay my taxes, the Government will take my house and sell it to the highest bidder and keep the profits - not redistribute it to the people.
Huh? This one is too easy, but it's not on topic; let's move on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdoster View Post
That was a government FULL of regulation and it was a sad, sad place.
This thread is about the obvious degradation of the oceans and what can we do about it. Some people opine that the problem is so big that we need international cooperation. Nobody is saying we need to convert our societies to be like Soviet-controlled East Germany in the 1980's.

Thanks for the conversation. Cheers!
11-07-2013 08:04 PM
tdoster
Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwing View Post
I dare you to sail your boat past Somalia, the world's most perfect non-governmental-regulation utopia.


Another good example of what happens in a regulation-free environment.

I have. I worked for the big evil oil drilling company when it was half the size it is now and spent a lot of time in fine places like Nigeria, Gabon, Malabo, Azerbaijan, Venezuela, etc. The closest to Somalia was Maldives to Mauritius to Port Elizabeth then up the East Coast of Africa to Dakar then up and across the pond to Halifax on a very slow and big target. Trust me, there are plenty of regulations in these countries that are setup to benefit those in charge and heck with the people. Somalia is a bad example as it is a case of anarchy and I won't go into my opinion of why and how we are partially at fault.

At the macro level of these governments say I am driving over the speed limit with a local in front of me and behind me. I get pulled over and am forced to pay a fine in cash right then and there. Define it however you like, but that is the selective way Regulations work, we are just better at hiding that in the US behind whatever..



Quote:
Originally Posted by jwing View Post

Good point. That is why wealthy countries like the USA and Canada should be leading the way to caring for the planet.
We have been. So, wouldn't you rather be out doing something as an individual and hope that other individuals watch and learn from you then lose every freedom you have because you will need to be regulated when there are only a couple corporations and large government running things when we can no longer trust the individual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwing View Post

I may be missing your point. Are you suggesting that the government should be in the business of cleaning up private companies messes and use fines to fund this activity? Wouldn't it be better if people and companies didn't mess things up to begin with?
Well, the EPA requires a fee that is ear marked to cleanup messes. Those "fees" are not used where they are supposed to. Really to clean up the past when there was no regulation and growth came first - as China is going through today.

If the Government is going to collect a fee or tax that was created to provide a specific function, then they should use it for that. The problem with new regulations, taxes, etc. is they rarely stay true to the intent. All things start with good intentions, but almost always end up tainted.

I don't know anything in the Constitution of the United States that says oil belongs to all the people. That sounds like Karl Marx talking. But with all this regulation and tax, it does not belong to the people, it belongs to the Government. If I don't pay my taxes, the Government will take my house and sell it to the highest bidder and keep the profits - not redistribute it to the people.

Right now, we are all profiting. I even have stock and 401K interest in oil and I am not a rich person by any stretch, but if I lost that "profit," I would sure feel it.

Just like the copper analogy, oil goes into a lot more than just running in our cars and every drop is refined into something and everything we do and use is bound to the black magic. The idea that one oil company is profiting off the sweat of the people is ludicrous. How many people are employed, how many other companies are dependent on it, and how many of us are small shareholders...

The best way to innovate new technology is by necessity. Running out creates necessity, not keeping it locked up in the ground.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jwing View Post


Because that oil belongs to the people of the USA, including future people. Since the USA is a net exporter of petroleum, oil companies are using up a national resource in return for excessive short-term profits for their shareholders and executives. (There is plenty of profit in the domestic market.)
I still hold to my beliefs that it is up to us as individuals. It is up to us to raise our kids, not the government. It is up to us to teach them to be individuals and respect the planet and the people who we share it with.

Why are humans so stupid to sit and listen to a leader getting rich talking the talk, but refuses to walk the walk with you.

The best part of being free is we are allowed to talk and debate and change our minds and express our opinions freely. One thing I will never forget is going across Check Point Charlie when I was in high school to visit East Berlin while the USSR still controlled it and we were allowed to go in the early 80's. That was a government FULL of regulation and it was a sad, sad place.
11-07-2013 07:03 PM
outbound
Re: The Ocean is broken? really?

105 acre pond in my backyard- 5y ago lg. mouth, sm. mouth, rainbows and perch. Now pickerel, catfish and a few bluegills- too much fertilizer, three new types of weeds from far way, not enough oxygen as water flow through pond has decreased. Change in ecosystem.
Trips down the coast- more deadheads and plastic crap in the water
Go to the beach- summer or winter - more junk
Go fishing- Strippers (rockfish) in open waters but little up in the bays where the water has warmed. Just blue fish

Yes - we are soiling our bed. Yes- if as individuals if we confront the litterers we sometimes take our taking out life in our hands.

Still the big polluters are commercial entities- sure continue to try to change folks attitudes but go after the big polluters financially. Follow the money.
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