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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Living Aboard > Live aboard legal address
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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-03-2014 07:12 PM
Minnewaska
Re: Live aboard legal address

For purposes of paying income taxes, it makes little to no difference what address is on your drivers license or where you vote. Business income will typically have nexus in the state it was earned, personal income in the state you actually live in. Makes no difference where your mailing address or drivers license are issued.
04-03-2014 05:58 PM
remetau
Re: Live aboard legal address

Quote:
Originally Posted by B.J. Porter View Post

I'm comfortable that I am legally able to establish my residency in Florida if the need arises.
An you will be joining thousands of others who have legally done the same thing.

I have been using SBI for about 8 years and have been very please with their service, and I am a Florida resident who lives aboard my boat.
04-03-2014 05:44 PM
B.J. Porter
Re: Live aboard legal address

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
BJ-
You could live in the middle of the Glades with no fixed address and that would make you a legal resident of Florida, although it probably wouldn't get you a driver's license or anything else other than a voter ID card.

You miss the point. Whether you are in fact a resident, someone who resides there, has got nothing to do with whether any one person agrees or disagrees with how residency is defined. Lawyers? Come on, we both know that 50% of all trial lawyers are wrong. They lose their cases every time the other 50% win. So just being a lawyer gives you, at best, a 50-50 chance of really knowing "the" law or the laws in some special area.

And that's assuming the laws don't change while the attorney isn't looking. Coupla years ago there was a big thread online about some fellow who had his houseboat, or house, or boat, confiscated and destroyed by one of the towns in Florida. Crazy case and the fellow took the city (town?) to court over it. Lost in the local courts. Lost in the appeal courts. Just last week, WON in the US Supreme Court, who overturned all the rest and said the man was right and everyone else, every lawyer and bureaucrat and alleged professional who had dealt with the case before, was wrong.

I don't need to be a lawyer to be right, or wrong. You may be deemed a resident, or you may be given resident status, by all sorts of entities for all sorts of reasons. But to paraphrase Galileo, "Nevertheless it resides!"

If you don't live there, you're not a resident. You're only a resident for the specific purposes of a specific entity that allows otherwise. I've never debated that or contradicted it. Only noted that all those "specific" residencies are granted by specific agencies, for specific purposes, and are not binding on anyone else--because there's no uniform state law defining residency in Florida.

Which of course means that any other agency can say "You're not a resident, those are not our terms." BoE /vs/ DMV a case in point.

The concept of a "Town" or a "State" are every bit as much of a legal fiction as a "Resident".

The State of Florida DMV, the Clay County Board of Elections, the Clay County Public Library, the IRS, the USCG, Bank of America, Fidelity, E*Trade, Santander Bank, Merrill Lynch, etc. etc. ...all think I am a Florida resident.

You may not...that is OK, but I do not think arguing the point further with you will achieve any more clarity.

I'm comfortable that I am legally able to establish my residency in Florida if the need arises.
04-03-2014 05:24 PM
hellosailor
Re: Live aboard legal address

BJ-
You could live in the middle of the Glades with no fixed address and that would make you a legal resident of Florida, although it probably wouldn't get you a driver's license or anything else other than a voter ID card.

You miss the point. Whether you are in fact a resident, someone who resides there, has got nothing to do with whether any one person agrees or disagrees with how residency is defined. Lawyers? Come on, we both know that 50% of all trial lawyers are wrong. They lose their cases every time the other 50% win. So just being a lawyer gives you, at best, a 50-50 chance of really knowing "the" law or the laws in some special area.

And that's assuming the laws don't change while the attorney isn't looking. Coupla years ago there was a big thread online about some fellow who had his houseboat, or house, or boat, confiscated and destroyed by one of the towns in Florida. Crazy case and the fellow took the city (town?) to court over it. Lost in the local courts. Lost in the appeal courts. Just last week, WON in the US Supreme Court, who overturned all the rest and said the man was right and everyone else, every lawyer and bureaucrat and alleged professional who had dealt with the case before, was wrong.

I don't need to be a lawyer to be right, or wrong. You may be deemed a resident, or you may be given resident status, by all sorts of entities for all sorts of reasons. But to paraphrase Galileo, "Nevertheless it resides!"

If you don't live there, you're not a resident. You're only a resident for the specific purposes of a specific entity that allows otherwise. I've never debated that or contradicted it. Only noted that all those "specific" residencies are granted by specific agencies, for specific purposes, and are not binding on anyone else--because there's no uniform state law defining residency in Florida.

Which of course means that any other agency can say "You're not a resident, those are not our terms." BoE /vs/ DMV a case in point.
04-03-2014 05:05 PM
B.J. Porter
Re: Live aboard legal address

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
BJ-
You cited
",the following are relevant factors that may be considered by the property appraiser in making his or her determination as to the intent of a person claiming a homestead exemption to establish a permanent residence in this state:"


See, it's that Florida thing again. All those things you are citing, are limited to the specific purpose of determining a homestead exemption by a real property appraiser. One specific purpose. They do NOT determine "residency" for any other purpose.

And in fact the Florida DMV has their own separate set of criteria.

And the Florida Board of Elections has yet another set of criteria. Or maybe you missed the news, about 3? 4? years ago the BoE in Broward or Dade County was forced to accept "under the second bridge on the Julia Tuttle Causeway" as a valid residency for homeless people, who are still entitled to vote, even if they live in the bushes somewhere.

The BoE wants and needs a physical residence to determine your election districts, and a GPO or "Post Restante" is unacceptable for that, even though it may be perfectly acceptable to other agencies for other uses. Like a license.

Try putting that on your driver's license or tax returns, it isn't accepted on those. Yet. Because Florida is very generous about allowing each agency to make their own definitions, for their own internal purposes. There still is no larger definition, no "one ring that binds them all".
You are wrong, dead wrong. Sorry...

DMV has their own criteria, they say I am a resident.
BoE has their own criteria, they say I am a resident.

It is on my drivers licenses and on my IRS 1040.

There isn't a specific "residency" definition, no. But there are a lot of criteria to establish residency in FL, and I meet more than enough of them to be a Florida resident.

I have discussed this extensively with a licensed Florida attorney that deals regularly with issues of residency law (yes, often pertaining to homestead exemptions but it is the same law). He is in agreement on this.

Are you an attorney? Are you licensed in Florida? If the answer to both of those questions is not "YES" I suspect that my go-to guy has better knowledge of this than you. He is the attorney I would hire if there ever was a residency question, he knows what he is talking about.
04-03-2014 04:52 PM
hellosailor
Re: Live aboard legal address

BJ-
You cited
",the following are relevant factors that may be considered by the property appraiser in making his or her determination as to the intent of a person claiming a homestead exemption to establish a permanent residence in this state:"


See, it's that Florida thing again. All those things you are citing, are limited to the specific purpose of determining a homestead exemption by a real property appraiser. One specific purpose. They do NOT determine "residency" for any other purpose.

And in fact the Florida DMV has their own separate set of criteria.

And the Florida Board of Elections has yet another set of criteria. Or maybe you missed the news, about 3? 4? years ago the BoE in Broward or Dade County was forced to accept "under the second bridge on the Julia Tuttle Causeway" as a valid residency for homeless people, who are still entitled to vote, even if they live in the bushes somewhere.

The BoE wants and needs a physical residence to determine your election districts, and a GPO or "Post Restante" is unacceptable for that, even though it may be perfectly acceptable to other agencies for other uses. Like a license.

Try putting that on your driver's license or tax returns, it isn't accepted on those. Yet. Because Florida is very generous about allowing each agency to make their own definitions, for their own internal purposes. There still is no larger definition, no "one ring that binds them all".
04-03-2014 04:39 PM
hellosailor
Re: Live aboard legal address

remeteau, I have no argument against SBI. They 'come up' so often only because they're probably the most popular and best-in-class that forum members use. I make the same argument anytime someone claims the live in a small box. It just ain't so. It may come back to bite you, sooner or later, and too many folks see postings like this on the web and then assume "it must be so" and then get themselves set up for a problem down the line.

I'd rather see it put in the correct perspective and context, that's all. Florida accepts it under Florida's own unique state laws, but those are of course subject to change, and contrary to residency laws in general.

Are SBI great folks? Sure. Are they in a legitimate business and doing a great service? Sure. That's got nothing to do with whether a box is a residence. My point is simply, "Caveat Emptor".


BJ-
284 Private Mailbox Addresses
The USPS says the difference between a PMB and a POB is simply that they and they alone, under their Congressional monopoly status, are allowed to use the term POST OFFICE box, since they and they alone are entitled to use the term POST OFFICE in any way or manner.
There's no difference between a PMB and a POB, except for the "trademark" status of the phrase "POST OFFICE". Which, to be sure, gives the buyer some extra reason to think their box is more secure or whatever. A Private Mail Box and a Post Office (mail)Box are both effectively the same thing. Whether a carrier chooses to deliver to one or another, is their own concern. Obviously, FedEx has no choice in the matter of delivering to a POB, because their competitor, the USPS, will not allow them to do so.
And that doesn't just apply to post office boxes. If you have a rural route address, and a post office approved mailbox on a post by the side of the road? Or a mail box or slot in your home? If it is USPS approved, only two entities are allowed to use it. You, and the USPS. FedEx or UPS or anyone else is not allowed to put anything in that box. Partly for security, mainly to enforce the monopoly. If your local Chinese restaurant delivery guy starts stuffing menus in mailboxes? They can and do get prosecuted, and told to GO BUY STAMPS AND MAIL THEM. At the USPS.

The USPS has made great inroads in protecting their monopoly status. That's all that difference is about. You still can't live in a box, although you might live in a hotel or dormitory that uses PMBs.

Now, if a mailstop were really sharp, they'd open an SRO or a dorm. And a whorehouse. Right over a casino and pub. Fine traditions, one and all, and understood by sailors round the world. And suitable as a residency, for real! When you can bunk upstairs, there's no risk of drunk driving. Just falling down on the stairs.
04-03-2014 03:50 PM
B.J. Porter
Re: Live aboard legal address

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"A PMB is not a P.O. Box, there is an important distinction there as there is a physical street address outside of a US post office."

I don't get that. Every Post Office, like every building, has a physical street address. Every "box" is a box at some address, in some building. If municipalities haven't mandated an addressing system, the USPS will use their own. If your building is "at" this spot on a mapped street...it gets a physical street address, one way or another. On a private way? Sorry, no address for you, you get the curbside "down there".

What I love are convoluted strip malls, where the nav systems say "No, really, it is right here..." and someone talked the USPS into assigning a street address that's got little if anything to do with the actual location. Box or no box. (G)

BJ, ask your lawyer friend this specific question:
Let's suppose you were wrongly arrested and charged with felony DUI and manslaughter. The judge, who thinks you might not be lying, says "OK Mister BJ, here's what we're going to do. We're going to let you out on your own recognizance, subject to house arrest, with this GPS ankle bracelet on your leg. YOU MUST STAY IN YOUR RESIDENCE AT ALL TIMES unless you are coming or going to your attorney or the court."

Now, how do you explain to the judge that your residence is...a small box on a shelf? Because when his GPS says you're not physically IN SBI....Ooopsie?
Try to send a FedEx package to a PO box, try to send one to an SBI PMB.

You will quickly learn the legal distinction.

As far as house arrest goes, I am guessing the judge wouldn't allow it for someone temporarily domiciled in a boat.
04-03-2014 03:43 PM
B.J. Porter
Re: Live aboard legal address

A bit more info. I consulted a friend I mine that is an attorney in FL. His work frequently touches on issues of residence WRT property law.

From him:

"Here are the statutes on residency that I use day-in, day-out. 196.012: (17)“Permanent residence” means that place where a person has his or her true, fixed, and permanent home and principal establishment to which, whenever absent, he or she has the intention of returning. A person may have only one permanent residence at a time; and, once a permanent residence is established in a foreign state or country, it is presumed to continue until the person shows that a change has occurred.

and for the Homestead Exemption, the Property Appraiser has to consider certain factors to determine whether someone is a permanent resident: 196.015, Florida Statutes:

196.015Permanent residency; factual determination by property appraiser.—Intention to establish a permanent residence in this state is a factual determination to be made, in the first instance, by the property appraiser. Although any one factor is not conclusive of the establishment or nonestablishment of permanent residence, the following are relevant factors that may be considered by the property appraiser in making his or her determination as to the intent of a person claiming a homestead exemption to establish a permanent residence in this state:
(1)A formal declaration of domicile by the applicant recorded in the public records of the county in which the exemption is being sought.
(2)Evidence of the location where the applicant’s dependent children are registered for school.
(3)The place of employment of the applicant.
(4)The previous permanent residency by the applicant in a state other than Florida or in another country and the date non-Florida residency was terminated.
(5)Proof of voter registration in this state with the voter information card address of the applicant, or other official correspondence from the supervisor of elections providing proof of voter registration, matching the address of the physical location where the exemption is being sought.
(6)A valid Florida driver’s license issued under s. 322.18 or a valid Florida identification card issued under s. 322.051 and evidence of relinquishment of driver’s licenses from any other states.
(7)Issuance of a Florida license tag on any motor vehicle owned by the applicant.
(8)The address as listed on federal income tax returns filed by the applicant.
(9)The location where the applicant’s bank statements and checking accounts are registered.
(10)Proof of payment for utilities at the property for which permanent residency is being claimed


I meet 1,4,5,6,8 and 9 in Florida.

2 & 3 don't apply as my kids are home schooled and I don't have a place of employment.
7 I don't have any cars, in theory I could register the boat
10. No utilities there or anywhere in a non-business capacity

I look an awful lot like a Resident of FL by these standards and in my lawyer friends opinion.

I'll go with that...
04-03-2014 03:31 PM
remetau
Re: Live aboard legal address

Hellosailor,

You seem to make this argument every time SBI comes up. The point is, you don't have to have a "house" to be a resident. If you don't live here, why do you keep arguing against it?
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