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"Free boat" seaworthiness

25K views 250 replies 36 participants last post by  captain jack 
#1 ·
hi folks. I have a big question but first, some background. I've been sailing for 17 years. I taught myself to sail on a 9' dinghy and I still sail her the most. she's convenient and fun. anyhow, I also own a holiday 20. it's a rock stable boat, when compared to my dinghy, and I've never even come close to worrying about a capsize. although, I must be honest, I've faced a lot worse situations in that dinghy than the 20. really crazy stuff, especially since I can't swim. lol.

now, the question. I am about to get a j24 for free. yep. free. it's in good functional shape. brand new sails. only needs a bit of trim work, really. the only thing is it's covered in mud and it doesn't come with a trailer. I have to move it immediately, if i'm to get it, so I have to see if I can find an affordable marina. I don't know what else to do. anyhow, my question:

when I first found out about this boat, I didn't know what it was. the guy only told me it was a keel boat and "24' Chesapeake". now, I thought he might have been telling me a model. cheapeake. searched the web over. found two possibilities. anyhow, at that size and full keel I figured light cruiser. found out tonight it's a j24 and got a pic of it. I will put the pic on here for shock value. lol.

anyhow, i'd like to use the boat for day sailing and light cruising; weekends or over night. everyone knows what a j24 is but I've never sailed one. so, I was searching the web and I found some disturbing stuff. I read a lot about them being prone to capsize and sinking. I've also heard that they have a bit of lee helm. I figured a keel boat would be more stable than my holidays 20, which is a center boarder.

I intend to sail her from back river, in the Chesapeake bay. I was wondering if I could get input from any who have sailed them about their sailing qualities. obviously, i'm looking for something stable for cruiser type use. I don't care about racing. I just love to sail.

so, are they that unseaworthy? are there any suggestions to make one more seaworthy? I don't mind some moderate modifications but I have a shoestring budget. that has to be kept in mind.

if I can get a place to keep her, I am going to take her. free boats don't happen every day...at least not to me. but, if she won't suit my purpose, i'll fix her up and try to sell her to afford a boat that does. too bad it couldn't be a nordica20, halman20, or flicka. that would have been perfect. but never look a gift horse in the mouth.

thanks in advance.
 
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#42 ·
Don't take that boat.. my gawd it looks like an EPA disaster! LOL anyway there's a 27ft Nearly free boat in my club, I think it's a swan. Gas engine not an A4 the kid had problems with the carb, and some other things I don't know about but he's not a member of my club anymore and the boat needs to go. I can inquire about it if you want her. The rigged an outboard on it. but that's all I know. never seen the inside of it. She's a keel boat has a cradle Nice lines. kinda Albin like.
 
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#44 ·
Most respectfully (I mean that!) if $350 is going to slow you down, I think you should definitely not buy the boat. It's just the beginning of a long road. I bought a pretty good boat this summer for $6500. I'm probably going to put $6500 into it this year to fix a lot of things I discovered along the way (this is after having it surveyed). Money just goes. I'm currently spending money I don't have on things I need, but I have a good job and can pay the stuff off. It's a long story.

Seriously though, there are awesome trailerable sailboats and you can have an amazing time on them. I don't regret going with the boat that I ended up with, but an Oday 2+2 or something like that would be cheap and you could do plenty of amazing stuff with it. You'll be learning on a real boat instead of putting money you don't have into something that ultimately isn't worth it. And if you can't afford hauling and launching and dockspace etc...you can't afford it. It's going to not be fun.
 
#61 ·
$350 isn't what would slow me down. it's $350 right now all at once. I can't just pull money out of my butt. if I could i'd spend all day picking my ass. lol. seriously, though. I need time to gather that kind of money. I can't just yank it out of the bank. I don't have it.

what kind of boat did you buy for $6500 and still need to put another $6500 into it? it must really be something. for Pete's sake, I bought my holiday 20 from a guy, who needed to sell it badly in November one year, for $800 and I had to put $0.00 into it to fix it up.

everyone keeps talking about putting money into something that isn't worth it. I know that no one wants to see me make a big mistake but what determines value? is it resale value? if so, that's a losing game. depending on how long you own any boat, unless it's the HMS Bounty or something, you are going to lose most of your investment when you sell it. things that get used depreciate in value.

to me, value is what something brings into your life. now, I wouldn't take this boat, even if I owned my own boat yard, if it was not a functional boat. but what does it take to be a functional boat?

1) a water tight hull. that's the biggest thing.
2) decent spars and standing rigging.
3) a big plus is a good rudder, although one could be fabricated. I do fabricate things but I will list it as a necessity
4) sails are important on my list because they are a costly item and you need them to sail

that's pretty much it. with those things, and nothing else, I can sail her. use azak planks to cover the missing hatches so rain can't get in and you have a usable sailboat.

if the blocks are bad, I could make blocks, although i'd probably buy them one at a time. people used to make blocks by hand so I can do that.
lines can be cleaned or replaced. that's a normal wear item.
I could make a new tiller if that one is shot.
that piece of damaged rub rail is n big thing.
any interior stuff: cabinetry, berth cushions, etc can be made as I go along and the materials aren't that costly. I have the tools and skills. in fact, even if I had to gut the entire interior down to the liner, I could build a new interior. not much different than building houses and I do that.
so, what else is there? maybe some fiberglass repair if there are bad spots. not that hard. paint. bottom paint and top paint. not needed to sail, immediately. still, it's a normal maintenance item.
the hatches? if I can't manufacture new ones, then I really have lost my skills.

so, if you really look at it clearly, as long as I check the first four items carefully, the cost of fixing the rest is not that much. I could, pretty much, get use of the boat almost immediately ( after a bath...for the boat, not me ). the really big hurdle, and I think the highest cost, is a place to keep it.

this boat has an advantage over my holiday. my holiday, the boat itself, needs no real work to be sailed. oh, after sitting, the halyards need cleaned and it could use a little paint. I could have been sailing it all summer. however, the trailer has rusted out on the central frame beam; the tongue as it extends to the axle. it rusted through right where it hits the axle frame member. I can't get to it to weld it with the boat on it. not having a big fork lift, a crane, or a large pond in my back yard; I am having an issue with getting the boat off of the trailer, in my mom's yard, to fix the trailer. fixing the trailer will be easy. it's getting the boat off of it that is hard and I can't take the boat anywhere to remove it because the trailer is unsafe.

but this boat is already on the water. if I can find a place to keep it, and muster the funds for docking rent, I can clean her up and sail her anytime I want. unlike the holiday, which requires another person to help me raise the mast ( I can't lift it in place, hold it there AND hook up the jib stay at the same time ), this boat already has a stepped mast and wouldn't need trailered. I could just drive to the water, carrying my sails in a sail bag, and, after bending the sails on, sail away. no fuss and I could do it solo, if I need to.

one big issue, with the holiday is, even if I fix the trailer and can start sailing tomorrow, my girlfriend's apartment complex doesn't allow trailers. she lives near the bay. so, on the weekends, when I stay down there with her, I can't just pull the boat down with me and go sailing. i'd have to go down Friday night, come back up for the boat Saturday and head back down to the water to sail, then bring it back Saturday night, and head back down Saturday night. that's over an hour each way. including my trip home Sunday night, or Monday, that's 6 hours on the road and I only get to sail one day. what if I wanted to sail a Sunday? I can't keep the trailer there overnight. so, to use my holiday, I will need to find some place, down there, to store it. then I can just drive over to where I store it and pick it up. but that is still a storage fee. so I will be paying to store a boat either way.

anyhow, that's where my thoughts are taking me. but, either way, if I can't find an affordable marina, I can't take the boat except to scrap it out...and I don't know if I can bring myself to cut a functioning boat up.

now, today, since I thought the boat was on back river, I only checked there for a marina. the boat is actually on middle river, so I can check there. it's further from Baltimore so maybe I will have better luck. things get more expensive the closer you get to the inner harbor.

you ever see those cups at bars or convenience stores; the ones with someone's picture and hard luck story on them asking for donations? I should put a save the sailboat cup at a few different places and see if I can get donations. if you word it well, you can get people to donate to anything. lol. I mean, if you get 1000 people to donate a single dollar, each...
 
#80 ·
$350 isn't what would slow me down. it's $350 right now all at once. I can't just pull money out of my butt. if I could i'd spend all day picking my ass. lol. seriously, though. I need time to gather that kind of money. I can't just yank it out of the bank. I don't have it.
If $350 presents a problem for you at any time, you can't afford a sailboat of any kind.

Trust me. ;)

There's a very good reason why $1000 is called a "Boat buck".

Here's a fresh, concrete example. On Tuesday two friends & I brought my 30' boat down from its berth to be hauled for the winter.

Out of pocket expenditures for me were as follows;

$20 - Food & drink for the trip.
$15 - Gas for the car for the trip.
$10 - Diesel for the boat.
$350 - Haul, pressure wash & block the boat.

And that's only the start - now the real expenses begin. :D
 
#45 ·
Almost all boats for sale are overpriced. That includes free ones!
 
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#46 · (Edited)
Captain Jack! This is the boat that needs to go:



I have a phone number, and I know he owes the club some money. Boat Angel from Ebay had it but the deal went bad so it's still here.
It does float by the way.
 
#55 · (Edited)
that is really nice. how much you think he wants? i am sure i could never afford it. what do you use to pull such a trailer?

well, still didn't see the boat! huge accident on the highway. held me up for over an hour. would have been dark by the time i got there so we rescheduled for 10am saturday. i did a drive by so i know exactly where it is. my fault this time. i asked him for the HIN. when i get the chance to see my email i will see if he sent it.

he is going to just cut it up for the landfill, if i don't take it. if i can't find a marina i can afford, i may see if he will, at least, let me strip it. i can use some of that stuff on my holiday20. but i hate to see a boat just get cut up.
 
#48 ·
It has nice lines. I don't know that it is a swan but I've been told it is. 70s something is the year. Like most boats up this way, it's never been in the water much.
 
#49 ·
I would be willing to bet you that the boat, motor, and maybe even the "brand new" sails have spent at least a month (maybe a year or more) on the bottom, and that the interior is just as much of a muddy mess as the exterior. Here's a boat that was floated from the bottom of my river after a couple months, and the one you're interested in is even worse:

 
#50 ·
Might be an Edel.

I agree it looks like it's been raised. Put in a lot of work and you'd have a decent hull & deck moulding to start building a boat with.
 
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#51 ·
Dude, take the boat if it has a lead keel. Cut the keel off and sell it for scrap, scavenge anything that might be useful and cut up the hull for landfill. The money you get from the scrap yard should buy you a decent boat you will actually enjoy sailing. That thing looks like a disaster.
 
#52 ·
Dude, take the boat if it has a lead keel. Cut the keel off and sell it for scrap, scavenge anything that might be useful and cut up the hull for landfill. The money you get from the scrap yard should buy you a decent boat you will actually enjoy sailing.
correct that to: not even cover the costs of disposing of the hull and/or storing the heap while scavenging it.

Why else do you think this guy wants to give it away? I'm sure even BoatAngel wouldn't take this thing. If $350 is beyond your budget, there is NO WAY you can get this done without running out of money.
 
#53 ·
Whoever takes it will make money on it, even if it's the salvage yard that gets called to just get rid of it. If I was anywhere close I'd scavenge those winches and the sails myself. Not all of us can afford to buy this stuff new...and yet, there are poorer sailors than me that would buy this scavenged "garbage" in a heartbeat.
 
#59 ·
odd question but I suppose so. cutting it up, myself, would be a last resort. rather than lose all the possible usable parts completely, I would go that route. but my goal would be to clean it up, fix what needs fixing, and sail it.
 
#63 ·
Well its already been determined that you cant come up with the three fifty for the yard so why are we still talking about this? Plus you will need that much to ship it or build a trailer for it. Plus you already have two boats. Sell those, if you can, the boat market is down and boats are not selling quick, and pick up a bigger boat is what I would suggest. If a bigger boat is what you are looking for?
 
#64 ·
If we're pretty sure that this boat spent time submerged, with no hatch, it's going to require much more than cleaning up. Every deck penetration from above and below (typically below is not a concern) that wasn't perfectly bedded, will have let water into the core. Water under pressure, btw. If that penetration and was anywhere near a chain plate, she would be dangerous, even if you cleaned her up and she looked okay. Are you able to determine if she has delamination? Then, can you tell if the standing rigging is safe? How will you get up the mast? When these parts corrode, they can't just be cleaned up, they must be replaced. Otherwise, wire under a thousand pounds of force could slap down on your head.

The points made about negative value are not a concern over resale. The point is that anything you spend on making this boat sailable will be more than you would have to pay to buy the same boat you end up with. Odds are that this boat will be disposable too and then you'll have to give it away or pay to have it scrapped and the money is gone. Better to buy a boat with that same money that will last.

Good luck, everyone is just trying to be helpful.
 
#72 ·
I know that, dude. I hope you guys don't think I was fussing at you. I wasn't. I know that you guys just don't want to see me get stuck with an albatross around my neck.
 
#65 ·
"Rotten to the core" comes to mind. Be careful. Your prior experience with daysailors may not translate to this boat. There's a whole lot more that can go wrong, a whole lot more $$$ that you may have to pour into it. Most of the $$$ will have to be paid up-front.
 
#70 ·
well, rest at ease. he can't find the title, either. he just emailed me that, this morning. I asked him to fetch the HIN for me but I doubt he does. I told him I was 'doubtful' it was a j-24. I will probably ask him if I can take some stuff from it, before he cuts it up, or take it and strip it and cut it up, myself. I would hate to do that, but without a legal title.....plus, you are right about unseen safety issues. that is a concern.
 
#74 ·
Jack, why not see if you can rent some jack stands or rig a cradle for the boat? If you lift the boat with the stands/cradle (my thought was four car jacks under the cradle), you may be able to slide the trailer out. Or, heck, at 1000 lbs, get all the crap out of the boat and get 10-15 friends to help you lift it.
 
#75 ·
denise030 asks a really good question. what have I been looking to get out of this boat ( to paraphrase a bit )? well, I would ideally like something a bit more seaworthy and stable than a day sailor. something I could, at least, do an overnight or weekend in. I would like to start cruising the bay, proper, and I think something more than a day sailor would be best. I don't need big, though. like I had mentioned, earlier, a Nordica/halman 20 or a flicka would be ideal. but, something around that range would be what I am seeking. that 27 footer is beautiful and early free, as she says, but, realistically, i'd not only have to find a place to keep that boat but I'd also have to transport it down here. that's really more boat than I can handle, at this point in life. I think 25' would be maximum. a little less would be a bit better. this boat looked as if it might have been an opportunity for that. but....maybe not. lol
 
#76 ·
denise030 asks a really good question.
She does that a lot.

that 27 footer is beautiful and early free, as she says, but, realistically, i'd not only have to find a place to keep that boat but I'd also have to transport it down here.
Negotiate with the club to store her there over this winter, then sail her down in the spring.

that's really more boat than I can handle, at this point in life.
I'm confused, then, why you think you'll be game for gutting the other boat while she's in the water. That's going to be a physically demanding job, probably moreso than motor-sailing that 27 from Philly to the Chesapeake.

I think 25' would be maximum. a little less would be a bit better. this boat looked as if it might have been an opportunity for that. but....maybe not. lol
I'm in my 40's, so maybe I don't have the right perspective. A 25' and 27' boat are going to have close to the same sail area, so the force on the sail is going to be approximately the same. That means that the strength you'll need to wrestle the 27's sails will be about the same as a 25. If the issue is with the ability to control a 27' when you're used to something smaller, I wouldn't worry too much. We jumped from a 14' rental to a 25'. It took about 3 tries docking to start to get comfortable. The next year (this past season) we jumped to a 31. I think the "new" boat is easier to handle than the 25.
 
#77 ·
Jack, have you considered crewing on others boats? For example, I'll be overnighting and crewing on a friends 28' Catalina this weekend, some of us are always looking for crew just to get out and have a good time sailing.
 
#84 ·
that's a thought. it would get me practice with bigger boats; winches and stuff. I don't really know anyone with a bigger boat, though. hmmm. no. that's a lie. practically everyone at Marburg knows me. I might have to ask someone about that, next time i'm up there.

although, I'll be honest, throughout my sailing life, I've never let a little thing like not having ever done something slow me down. lol. but a bit of practice would make it easier when i'm the skipper of my own cruising sailboat.
 
#81 ·
Jack I did send you a pm. We are on the Delaware River. and you can take her all the way home by water. You need the experience anyway; :) find a friend that knows the way and has a 6-10 hp 2 stroke outboard, come see the boat, which Is is nearly free since the club only wants it's storage fee, far as I know. BUT, you keep saying you don't have anywhere to take the boat. Consider joining a YC. way cheaper then marinas in most cases.
 
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