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Sailing, safety, & size

28K views 216 replies 33 participants last post by  sneuman 
#1 ·
Hi all,

Over the last week, I have read a number of posts, here and other places, regarding not feeling safe in open water in smaller boats. Now days that seems to mean less then 35 ft!

How many out there equate size to safety? Does it have anything to do with it? If you think size does provide safety, why? What's the logic? :confused:

Do you feel safer in your home country, state? Or is it just in the head of the person making the judgment? After cruising Mexico for years, we feel safer there than in the US! (Excluding ALL boarder towns!)

I am currently reading a book, The Terrible Loyalty, by Sandy Moss. Jill and I met Dave Chamberlain (who the book is about) in the California Delta when we were cruising there a few months back. It's about the voyage of a 20 ft. boat from the West Coast to Hawaii. A very good read!

Disclosure;
I am a geezer and remember when a 32 ft. boat was a BIG ocean going boat! And, Jill and I have cruised on boats from 132 Ft. to our current Nor'Sea 27. We prefer our 27 to all of them.

I have never understood how or why people equate size to safety. Witness the Titanic! ;)

Greg
 
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#117 ·
Barefoot
1. Light air=parasailor or 140 and full main= 7 to 8 1/2 kts
2. Last 2000 NMR = 20 engine hours
3. Heavy weather= storm sails= better ride than engine and safer.
4. 30+kts= Solent and double reefed main= 200+m/ d

Last trip to Annapolis being fast and looking at weather window left 12h earlier than planned. Got in just as miserable weather was starting to build in Chesapeake.

My experience just this year is just the opposite of yours forgetting about years past.
 
#119 ·
Yours IS the correct reply....:laugher

A quick note here.

As the OP of this thread, I was just trying to get a feeling for the thoughts about the subject. I NEVER thought about trying to convince ANY ONE about the subject, one way or the other. Although my belief is that any boat can be safe or not, regardless of size.:D

I do get a kick out of people who look down on smaller (35 foot & less) boats as less capable of voyage making than bigger boats. I find it interesting that people believe Jill and I sail our 27 because we can't afford a larger, "safer" boat. ;)

Greg
 
#120 ·
I think my 50 footer is safer than the 25 / 30 or 37 footers I've owned. The main reason, fatigue. In rough conditions the smaller boat beats you up more. The smaller 5 boats ( owned 2 of the 30 and 37 footers) have comparable "comfort ratios" to the 50 for their size.

I sailed the smaller boats almost always solo. The 25 and 30 sloops the 37's cutters. The 37c was probably the easiest to sail alone. The more stable platform made all jobs easier, sails cooking etc.


I also single hand the 50, no power winches no autopilot. But it is a ketch rig so sail area for each sail is not that much more vs my cutters. The hardest part is docking the 50. I have to use spring lines now on the smaller boats it was optional.

"Sailing" yes the "bigger" boats around here also tend to motor a lot more. I will sail if there is any wind (staysails,drifters etc) if I'm day sailing. If on vacation I will motorsail because of limited time. Most of the bigger/expensive boats owners around me can't/ won't sail in light air. Its not that their boats can't sail faster it's that the owners can't/ won't. Or they don't have the sails to do so. I've been a fan of your mainster for years.
 
#121 ·
Interresting post :)
For many reasons i preffer my tiny racer, it can take alot of wind and its built like a tank.
Big boat are really nice and comfortable, cant compare to my little 7.5 racer but ...
As and old sailor said to me ... A safer vessel is the one that move ... A 300 ft vessel that is dead moving is very unsafe in a big storm :-/
 
#123 · (Edited)
Greg- You're out there. Looked at your blog and it's clear you're doing it. Please don't have the penis envy thing ( bigger is better). People who look down at you have a stick up their butt. It's just like people -the outside don't count as much as what's inside and what they can do. Still, seem thread is coming to a consensus. Bigger is better (comfort, speed, supplies, ride, survivability etc.) but too big is unsafe ( can't single, can't run without power assist, expensive so when times hard may not be maintained etc.).
Where that too big point is varies. For some it's 30' when they won't even depend on the mechanical advantage of a winch. For others it's 50' as they are fit and have an "I can do it" attitude. For me it's low to mid forties as I think my 4'10" bride should be able to handle everything regardless of occurrence.
Believe Lynn and Larry are right-"you can't buy safety". Believe Barefoot and you are right small boats can be quite safe. But Paulo's points are undeniable.

Think the deal with big boats motoring reflects time constraints and attitude. In boat with proper design and SA/D size should have little or no impact on the decision to power or sail. Personally the sound of the engine drives me nuts and can't see why you would put up with all the sailboat issues if you are just going to power. Besides most all boats are faster with the rags up in any decent breeze. Just like it amazes me that people won't buy the best chain and anchor I'm amazed people won't get appropriate light and heavy air sails.
 
#124 ·
Outbound,

Have no fear about us catching the bigger is better attitude! :)

I started the thread only about size and safety. Jill and I are VERY safe aboard our 27! I KNOW Jill can bring me home, should I have a medical problem, by herself, even when the conditions go to crap. Just like you, that was/is one of our driving factors. Size of the boat is only ONE (1) factor in the safety of a boat. It seems a lot of people over look that. :confused:

I also did not bring up that when we finished up in Mexico, we came home going to weather at 55 MPH.;) And last March, we towed to Napa Valley for some wine, and cruised the San Francisco Bay & Delta for months. Saw the Americas Cup boats on the water. Then towed back here to Az. Now planning to tow to the New Orleans area next Feb. for Mardi Gras, then cruise on over to the Tampa Fla. area and haul back out just at hurricane season. Do that with a 50 footer! :laugher

Greg
 
#147 · (Edited)
.. On the other hand I'm not sure open 60s are a good example of how much safer larger boats are......
What would be interesting is if one could compile statistics between the three classes to actually come to some conclusion backed by the evidence
Don't know what I'm talking about? I never made any claims one way or the the other. But I guess your knee jerk mind failed to notice that.

In any case it's possible that certain inherent safety advantages the bigger boat has could possibly be offset by the dangers of higher speed, reduced ability to handle the bigger boat easily or higher degree of difficultly in engineering the larger boat. ....

But again when you are just looking at one set of numbers it doesn't tell you anything. ..
Sometimes I get lucky:). I have said that evidently a big solo racer like an Open 60 would be much safer than a Mini class racer and that anyone that know something about these boats, particularly the ones that sail them, would have any doubt about that and just by accident a very experienced solo sailor had said just that yesterday.

The big Jaques Fabre Transat has been postponed a day (50k winds) and at a certain point on this video about that (min 1.08) a very experienced professional solo sailor, talking about facing bad weather is saying precisely that, talking not about mini class racers but about much bigger 40class racers versus 60class racers and 50ft multihulls versus 70ft multihulls.

On a more textual translation and than the one offered on the video he is sayng:

"They are all blue water racing boats with very experienced crews even if some are amateurs. Evidently the bigger the boat the safer we can consider we will be"


BRE - Briefing tempo - Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 por TransatJacquesVabre

as I have said, that is evident;).

Regards

Paulo
 
#150 ·
Sometimes I get lucky:). I have said that evidently a big solo racer like an Open 60 would be much safer than a Mini class racer and that anyone that know something about these boats, particularly the ones that sail them, would have any doubt about that and just by accident a very experienced solo sailor had said just that yesterday.

The big Jaques Fabre Transat has been postponed a day (50k winds) and at a certain point on this video about that (min 1.08) a very experienced professional solo sailor, talking about facing bad weather is saying precisely that, talking not about mini class racers but about much bigger 40class racers versus 60class racers and 50ft multihulls versus 70ft multihulls.

On a more textual translation and than the one offered on the video he is sayng:

"They are all blue water racing boats with very experienced crews even if some are amateurs. Evidently the bigger the boat the safer we can consider we will be"


BRE - Briefing tempo - Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 por TransatJacquesVabre

as I have said, that is evident;).

Regards

Paulo
Fist off your translation is somewhat different from the one given. I'll assume for the sake of argument yours is more correct.

I find the position that one person's opinion however experienced he is, should negate the need for real statistical data somewhat dubious. That's not to say he is wrong. I am merely pointing out that intuition and anecdotal evidence has often been proven to be incorrect. I don't want to beat a dead horse here and I'm not trying to convince you of anything. All I'm saying is I trust the scientific method much more than "Jack the sailing god on you-tube said it, so now we must take it as fact."

I have no vested interest in proving small boats are safer and in fact I'm not trying to do so. However, I am still wondering if in SOME situations that may be the case. I haven't seen anything yet that provides a definitive answer......Peace :).
 
#137 ·
Well, I seriously doubt that is true...

The Nor Sea 27 isn't even the most popular choice among those listed in LATITUDE 38's List of West Coast Circumnavigators, hard to imagine it would have been an even more popular choice among Europeans and other nationalities who have sailed around the world...

Latitude 38 - West Coast Circumnavigators' List

There's no question, the NS 27 is an extremely capable little boat. But I find it hard to believe that a boat originally designed and marketed to be trailerable, would have been the choice of more circumnavigators than any other boat out there...

I've never seen a definitive answer to the question, and I doubt anyone knows with any certainty, but if I had to put my finger on one boat that has gone around more than any other, I'd guess the Tayana 37... They had a very long production run, many are available at good prices, and have long seemed to me to be a very popular choice among those taking off for extended cruising. Or, perhaps the Valiant 40, or Westsail 32... Among boats under 30', I'd guess maybe the Albin Vega, or Contessa 26?
 
#131 ·
"Just for fun, consider some of the improbable boats that have safely made it around: Lapworth 24, Lyle Hess 24, 25-ft wood Folkboat, Vertue 25, Contessa 26, Heavenly Twins 26 cat, Albin Vega 27, Cal 2-27, Nor"sea 27, Southern Cross 28, H-28, Westsail 28, Piver 28 tri, Ericson 29, Cascade 29, Odyssey 30, Golden Gate 30, Rawson 30, Channel Cutter 30, And I know for a fact that some of these boats on this list were purchased and equipped for less than $10,000. As has often been said, money or size has never been the main obstacle to anyone doing a circumnavigation. These aren't simple ocean crossings they are full circumnavigations" Quoted
 
#132 · (Edited)
Sure, do you know that a guy had circumnavigated non stop on a 22ft mini class racer? and that a guy had crossed the Atlantic on a small beach open cat? What has all that to do with a bigger or smaller security margin?

That is the kind of thought that is dangerous like: If a guy crossed the Atlantic on a beach cat, than it is as safe to do so and on a beach cat as on a 50ft cruising cat. Size does not matter in what regards seaworthiness and safety:rolleyes:

Regards

Paulo
 
#148 ·
Brian you make very valid points. Paulo speaks to racing and high performance cruising but I think Greg is asking about us mere mortal cruisers. Still, Steve in his skinny long boats can routinely do 300 m/ d, I can expect the occasional 200+m/ d but Greg is probably doing 100-150m/d. Less days at sea=greater safety. Steve has to dock his boat and service it on occasion. I think one of the great joys of cruising is hanging out in new places. They seem to charge for everything by the foot. Don't care much about beam. I can sneak through the Panama Canal without extra line handlers for example. I can haul in any decent marina. I can afford a day or two in a slip for a break. But I'm still big enough for a mechanics room with a splendid to do my wash,and AC and water maker and generator and adequate tankage. Big part of cruising is quality of life. Comfy happy crew= good crew dynamics=good decisions= safety. Hearing about macho pros making BFS holds little interest to me as a average Joe.
 
#149 · (Edited)
Brian you make very valid points. Paulo speaks to racing and high performance cruising ....
I speak generally and give particular examples, as all examples have to be.

What is true for the Beneteau Oceanis line is true for solo racing boats and any kind of boat: If a boat can be handled by the crew in all conditions, a bigger same type of boat is safer. That is as evident regarding race solo boats or any kind of cruising boat.

That does nor mean that a smaller boat is not perfectly safe under a given set of circumstances and sea conditions, but there is not a single small sailboat (and I am talking as small to boats till 80ft or even more) that can be safe in all sea conditions. Smaller ones (same type) start to be unsafe with much less demanding conditions and on hurricane conditions even the bigger ones are not safe or have not and adequate safety margin.

Regarding the same type of boat there is a huge difference in the conditions that are safe for a 27ft boat and for a 45ft boat. This is all evident and regards directly the subject of this thread: Size matters to safety.

Regards

Paulo
 
#151 ·
I think as usual what is being completely lost in translation here is the difference between a seaworthy boat and seaworthy-ness. I would suspect most people reading and writing on this post have never been over a hundred miles off shore or experienced extreme weather if you have please let us know, way back someone asked us to share our level of experience but I was the only one who did so perhaps there are all sorts of arm chair sailors here parroting what they have read.
We eat just as well if not better on our small boat. Our 22' boat has a very comfortable motion and we rarely get worn out regardless of the weather. People get exhausted at sea due to lack of experience or being short handed, on a 22' boat we are never short handed. If it gets really crappy out we heave to make cookies and watch a movie, no biggie. As far as seaworty-ness if you follow the seasons and use a little bit of caution you have nothing to worry about. Sailors who have little to no time at sea always worry about storms, for those of us who have spent a lifetime out there we maintain our boats and sail. For every sailboat lost at sea hundreds are lost by hitting land due to poor anchoring or navigation. Boats catch on fire, explode sink at the dock an get hit by other boats. Seaworthy-ness of boat construction and design is 10% of being safe at sea. More boats are lost every year because people rely on crazy accurate chart plotters but many charts are over a hundred years old and very inaccurate. People rely on depth sounders which old tell you how deep the shoal you just hit are. Look at any big plastic fantastic boat and you will see a large screen tv right in your safe line of site and the skipper glued to it. Most sailors have lost the ability to think and sail as we did just a few short years ago. Motors on boats keep getting bigger and bigger as do fuel tanks. Some guy posted on here that he has 2200 hours on his 2005 sailboat, in 8 years he has motored the equivalent of half way around the world oin a sailboat.
For anyone reading this who is actually here to learn an not just in it for the endless debate of my D1(k is bigger than yours I would say.
Get a boat
learn the ropes
save a few buck
go sailing
its the safest thing you can do in this world and yes heavy weather while sometimes scary is also quite fun when you are on a boat you trust and can safely handle. :)
 
#153 ·
Greg yesterday there was a break in the wind and rain so finished rigging the dyneema stay and hung the storm jib to measure for sheets while looking at the runs for areas of potential chafe. Got asked " why is that sail such a funny ugly color?". Oh well.
Still, I understand you get it. What I don't understand is how you can believe there is any situation where offshore you would feel safer in your boat than mine.i respect your experience but just thinking back over the last few months when we had multiple days over 30kt and I felt blessed we were still cooking hot food, sleeping without trouble and feeling very secure and in control on watch. Please give some concrete examples where you think smaller is better
 
#155 ·
Outbound,

Ugly color! :D We love our tanbark!!:)
I am doing Teak just now. That and a bit of rewiring of our solar system. Having the boat on the hard close by helps me get my projects done, bit by bit.

We have spent days at sea just like you. I think it sounds like our boats are comparably equipped. We have faced some big waves and wind. Some more than the boat in the video that had to be abandoned, what was it, 30 ft & 50 K or MPH??? (we were NOT facing an approaching hurricane) We heave-to when we need to, sail when we need to and yes even motor when we need to. Like you guys, WE NEVER go hungry aboard. My waist line shows it! :D As we cruised I found I am always gaining weight!

Please understand, I am not saying my boat is safer than yours. What I tried to say in my posting is that size is only one part of the "safety" equation, not the "be all/end all" measure of safety. How the boat was designed, how the boat was built, how the boat is outfitted, how the crew can handle her, it ALL goes into safety. If we moved onto your boat and I had a year to learn it's system inside and out, and was sure Jill could work it without power. Then the safety factor would be the same. I am also looking at my age in the factor. No matter what I tell myself, I AM getting older and can not handle the physical things I used to. But I am also not willing to put my life in the hands of an electrical system. NOT that they fail often, just that we all know they do. We have many friends who went from smaller boats to bigger, then as time goes on, back to smaller so they can handle them.

I keep asking Jill about getting a Montgomery 17, as a "summer home". :) But that would NOT do blue water with us aboard.

I am always amazed at people who look at our small boat (YES, we know it's small) and tell us it's unsafe for us to go "out there".;)

Take the guy with a bucket of money, he goes out and buys a 55 foot boat, because it feels good at the boat show and he likes the way, when it's backed into the boat show slip, he gets on and off the boat. He takes delivery and has never owned more than a dream before this! Now that is unsafe, no matter the boat. By the way, we watched this take place!! And was at a marina when the back end of said boat needed repairs as it did not back up just like a car.:rolleyes:

Some day, that combination will be safe if he keeps learning and knows the limits, just not now.

Greg
By the way, I NEVER thought this thread would grow like this! I was just asking a few views on the subject. Looks like I got them.:D
 
#154 ·
It always seems to me that people with smaller boats are more interested in winning this old argument than people with larger boats. Personally I'm not interested in anyone trying to convince me that I should get a smaller boat, period! If someone else is happy with their small boat is matter not to me.

There is a lot more to boating than "safety" to which a larger boat is so much better than a small boat.
 
#159 ·
Love tan bark but was told for just about any sail putting in any color decreases life expectancy.
ob - I think you'll find it's just the opposite…color increases life expectancy. (Note that furling foresails usually have a dark leach. The leach is the only part of the sail exposed when furled so exposure to sun when furled has less deleterious effect.)

Remember that white colored objects reflect NO light…and colored objects reflect light with the wavelength of the color observed. So the lighter the color of an object the more light (energy) is absorbed. It's the energy of the light's waves being absorbed (rather than reflected) that breaks down the fabric and robs it of its strength.
 
#162 ·
Barefootnavigator has said “…if you have any (experience) please let us know…” I have 160,000+ miles on over 150 sailboat. Sailing is what I do. From the very beginning of this thread I could have said that I am in the “size does not matter” camp. As has been very well stated by Barefootnavigator, Deleznski, and jabberwock , there is much more to safety than boat size. I disagree with PCP strongly, but I usually do, and this is just another example of his opinion vs mine. For the most part he is usually guilty of gross exaggerations.
Personally, I prefer ocean sailing on the smaller boats. I have more control of the boat and this clearly equates to safety for me.
One of my 10,000 stories involves a sister ship of a frequent contributor to this thread. I apologize but I am not going to name him. He has one of the bigger boats. While sailing close by, the boat in question was hit by a whale.
It suffered serious damage but did make it to Seattle without taking on any serious water. The whale was also bloodied, unfortunately. Soon after this accident, the boat was repaired and sold. I personally feel that the smaller boat that I was on, which was also heavier built, would not have sustained such damage. This little story says very little, but it is just one example of a much newer, more modern and larger boat not having any additional safety built into it.
 
#163 · (Edited)
.. I disagree with PCP strongly, but I usually do, and this is just another example of his opinion vs mine. For the most part he is usually guilty of gross exaggerations.
...
I did not remember who you were but since you accuse me of "gross exaggerations" I give myself the trouble to have a look at your posts to try to remember of what you were talking about and ...yes, of course I remember now: you are the one in love with your Westsail 32:D.

The one that says that out sails with the W32 a Vailant 40, that says that a 80 years old Atkin 36 can do "6.5k in apparent winds of 18k @ 28 degrees, in difficult conditions".

That says that Bob Perry regarding the Tayana 37 "got the shape wrong. As he has done on other designs" and that the Tayana 37 " it is slower than the 80 year old Alajuela 38 design" and believes that "if Perry and JeffH actually did a little long distance voyaging, they might word their praise of the modern designs a little differently"… "Jeff H has been a huge source of that misinformation as have many others. This is an open forum and the people asking questions deserve honest answers. It is a violation of this forum's rules to push some other agenda as Jeff H has done."

The best is yet to come:

You say also:

"If my choices were a Valiant 32, Tashiba 31, Brent Swain 31, Baba 30, or Islander 28, I would choose the Brent Swain 31. And I have no doubt that I could sail it - in all directions - equal to or faster than all the other boats mentioned… I know the math.".....

and say:

"The most ridiculous of the comments? … by Outbound, "ability to point and make a good days run in light/moderate air remain failings of most full keeled boats". …A heavier full keeled boat is sailed differently in light air than a lighter fin keeled boat. It can get the job done just as well….There is simply no over-riding benefit to crossing an ocean, Down wind or Upwind, in light wind, or heavy air, on a fin keeled, or light weight, ocean voyaging, live-aboard, cruising sailboat......

The accompanying photos show a W-32 off the coast of Washington. The TRUE wind is approximately 3.1k. Does anyone here really believe that a Farr 38, Elan, or Figaro 35 would be able to do a lot better? Myth #1) The W-32 can't point. In fact, under exactly identical conditions, it will point equal to the average 30' racer cruiser. Myth #2) The W-32 can't run. In fact it runs faster than most 36' racer cruisers.

This forum has the potential to be a great source of information. It is important to keep the information accurate. I think a little more policing is in order here."

All in blue are quotes from Oregonian, where he shows his knowledge about sailboats and design in a very accurate and never exaggerated way.

Well, I try to be accurate but if sometimes I exaggerate I can assure all and particularly Oregonian that I have no intention, as I believe it is the case with him. He was however an excuse: Love makes us blind:).

Regards

Paulo
 
#165 ·
A matter of numbers!!

Last night, Jill and I had dinner at a restaurant/Jazz club. Ed & Ellen Zacko were there playing in the session. They are back in the USA from Spain. They sailed from the US to the Med a few times over the years, then back across, through the Panama Canal (I posted a Youtube of there trip with MrJohn), then on out through the South Pacific, They shipped their boat to France, did the canals and are now back in Seville Spain. I say this as they have a bit of experience sailing a Nor'Sea and MrJohn is a larger (40 +/- boat).

During a break we were talking about the subject. He said that John, (on MrJohn) thought safety is a matter of numbers. 10 being the best, 0 the bottom.

IF, you have sailor that is a 10, and you have a boat that is a 10 it can do most anything
IF, you have sailor that is a 10, you can have a boat that is a 5 and still go most any place.
IF, you have sailor that is a 5 and a boat that is a 5, that's a recipe for trouble.

In my mind, my thoughts, the numbers are constantly changing. You might be a #10 sailor when you are 30 or 40~ years old. At 55 to 60, you are no longer a 10. No matter what my mind might try telling me, the old body just ain't the same.

A boat might be a 10 when you depart the dock, but as the cruise progress, it may drop in number.

On the way home my mind was going over this. The bigger (say 55+ foot) boat may start out with this #10. Then you put a value on each item or system. So, waterline is part of the total number. How the craft was designed AND built is part of that number. So is that electric winch, (the electric is part of the total for the winch and the manual is part of that number). The rigging is part and so on as you like.

My thought is that while a large well designed and built boat, say 18 to 20 meter (~65 foot) boat leaves the dock a #10.

As it goes along, with a lot of systems, if one breaks down, that #10 can fall rapidly. If for instance electric is used for sails & anchoring, and you loose electric, the numbers fall quickly and the boat fast becomes a 5.

The larger the boat and/or the more complex, the faster the number can drop.

If a smaller boat, rated as, say an 8 or 9 due to shorter water line, leaves the dock, but does not have electric sail handling or winches as they are not needed, there is just not that much to lower that number.

Also, we add to that the crew scale. A crew departs the dock as a #10, but after some time, that number may drop. Break an arm and you are instantly down to a 3 or 4. Fatigue would be in this part of the equation. It has been very rare that I have become overly tried as our boat will heave-to very easy and we take a break to rest up.

Any way, just another way to look at this. I think more logical. :)

Greg
 
#166 ·
A matter of numbers!!

Last night, Jill and I had dinner at a restaurant/Jazz club. Ed & Ellen Zacko were there playing in the session. They are back in the USA from Spain. They sailed from the US to the Med a few times over the years, then back across, through the Panama Canal (I posted a Youtube of there trip with MrJohn), then on out through the South Pacific, They shipped their boat to France, did the canals and are now back in Seville Spain. I say this as they have a bit of experience sailing a Nor'Sea and MrJohn is a larger (40 +/- boat).

During a break we were talking about the subject. He said that John, (on MrJohn) thought safety is a matter of numbers. 10 being the best, 0 the bottom.

IF, you have sailor that is a 10, and you have a boat that is a 10 it can do most anything
IF, you have sailor that is a 10, you can have a boat that is a 5 and still go most any place.
IF, you have sailor that is a 5 and a boat that is a 5, that's a recipe for trouble.

In my mind, my thoughts, the numbers are constantly changing. You might be a #10 sailor when you are 30 or 40~ years old. At 55 to 60, you are no longer a 10. No matter what my mind might try telling me, the old body just ain't the same.

...
Greg
Greg I agree with what your friend said between the interaction of the boat and the skipper in what regards safety and seaworthiness not so much with your own conclusions.

Let's take for example that story about a sailor with 55 to 60 not being a 10 and let's look for instance to Francis Joyon that is 57 years old:

Look at him:





Only this year he has beaten two major absolute solo records and that boat of his is much more difficult to sail that any 60ft cruising monohull in the market...and he is not cruising the boat but racing.

I could give you more examples of top sailors with about that age. If one is still reasonably fit experience and knowledge counts a lot more than physical performance and power. Look for instance to the vendee Globe, the thoughest sail race and you will see that almost all are over 40 with many over 50 years old.

Regarding boats each boat is a case but you are exaggerating with that story of a bigger boat to start with 10 and finishing with 5.

Of course there are many types of boats and many even if could safely voyage offhsore where not designed thinking about that.

Take one of those boats that are designed with voyage in mind and that is not certainly true. Think for instance on a Allures 45 or 51, on a Boreal 44, 47 or 50, on an OVNI 445 or 495 , on a Nordship 43, on a Halberg Rassy 43 or 48, on a Najad 440 or 460, on an Amel 55, on a x-50 or in a Oyster 575 and I am sure, as their owners and designers will certainly be, that the boat can cross the Atlatic and if not arrive on the other side of the pond with a 10, they will arrive with a 9.









However I agree that generally it is needed more experience and knowledge for sailing a bigger boat solo and without that experience, as your friend says, if you have a 10 sailboat and a 5 skipper, the boat can go almost anywhere, but if you have a 10 sailboat and a 2 or 3 skipper, than it is a recipe that can lead to disaster.

Unfortunately there are a lot of 2/3 value skippers buying 10 or near 10 value big boats and sailing away with them, some even circumnavigating thinking they are safe because they have a safe boat.

Well, they can be lucky and have time to learn along the way or escape really bad weather altogether or they can not be that lucky and they will be in trouble.

Regards

Paulo
 
#168 ·
Have spoken to several sail makers about this. Still went with red for the parasailor figuring I'll rip it before it wears out. (grin). Seems consensus is any color (including tanbark) added to sail decreases life expectancy. Stuff they put as UV block on roller furling sails is not part of the sail it self. On my sails even it is white to maximize life. May want to ask folks out by you see if you get different answers- I'm always curious but makes sense coloring the sail changes its chemistry so effects it's life.
 
#170 ·
A previous poster asked about experience. For me 20,000 blue water miles including North and South Pacific, Tasman Sea, North Atlantic, Carribean. 10,000 coastal sailing miles mostly East Coast US.

For me, I wanted to buy a safe boat. I figured criteria should be boat should be able to be single handed, even if you normally sail with at least one crew. Next criteria is the boat make and model should have a history of sailing non-stop around the world via the 5 great capes. I figure if it can do that, it should be a safe boat. I ended up with an S&S 34. Again, this is my criteria, others for sure have other criterias.
 
#174 ·
Thinking about safety looks like there are two schools of thought. You can go small and simple or big with a lot of technology and expense to allow a reduce crew to be able to handle the larger boat. Either way the boat is probably equally safe, but the larger boat much more expensive with a lot more systems that need to be perfectly maintained (with associated costs).

Kind of like the space shuttle. This was a very complex piece of equipment, that if constructed per spec (no corner cutting on design and testing) and maintained perfectly, the space ship should perform. We know what happened with the shuttle. And how do we get to space today- We depend on the Russians, with there simple, robust space ship that uses the basic technology we used to get to the moon in the 60's over 40 years ago.
 
#176 ·
When we decided what boat we would get, among others parameters, was my background. I come from the Aerospace industry and spent many years in the Specifications, design, build, integration, testing and launch of spacecraft.

I have ALWAYS looked at our boat as our very own spacecraft, we just didn't need to bring O2 with us. :D

Greg
 
#175 ·
Just had it up once with just enough air to fill it. Still early days but it's an example how a advance in design allows a out of shape, fat old man fly a huge sail by himself safely. Much of the discussion seems biased toward smaller boats making use of believed fail safe systems and larger boats needing complicated systems. What seems to be overlooked is a lot of the new fangled stuff is really fool proof and easier. Examples
1. the parasailor
2. dutchmans and lazy jacks
3 dymeena replacing hanks on sails
4. ultra low friction blocks
etc.

These material advances make handling a 40 even 50 ft boat possible even for the geriatric crowd. And physics dictate a well founded well designed bigger boat is safer. Still, curious where folks think the break is in size before physical issues for the average cruising couple is e.g.where size becomes an issue because it's too big to handle without power.

P.S.- Paulo I went to engineering school in the beginning. Known about the spectrum. Still believe white sails last longer. We are no longer using Egyptian cotton or flax. (grin)
 
#178 ·
..Paulo I went to engineering school in the beginning. Known about the spectrum. Still believe white sails last longer. We are no longer using Egyptian cotton or flax. (grin)
I did not said otherwise and if you understand that you have misunderstood me. White is the "color" that radiates more solar energy and absorbs less. it is logical that a white sail degrades less with solar radiation.
Regards

Paulo
 
#180 ·
I want to thank all of you for sharing your thoughts. Now we know the crew can mean more than the type of boat. We are safe to say bigger is better. I have finished two books Twenty small boats to take you anywhere under 32 ft and Twenty affordable sailboats. 30-38 feet John Viger , Gregg Nestor. Where do you find that thin line between an aircraft carrier and a sunfish? I am doing all this reading. I am sailing when I can. Here are 40 boats to pick and look thru Plus Paulo has a Thread with many more boats. The full keel vs fin Keel thread goes on. I think new technology is great. I like ( K.I.S.S Keep it simple.... I am not a fan of one off or custom boats. I think I like to follow the herd. I am window shopping and looking for the dream. What do you all want to put in the window ?
I am happy with my (New to me fits my ability level and needs. 1974 Catalina-22)
Good day, Lou
 
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