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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Production Boats and the Limits
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Thread: Production Boats and the Limits Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
2 Weeks Ago 01:40 PM
goboatingnow
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

My experience is that most reasonably made production boats today are more robust then their crews, after that what else really matters.
2 Weeks Ago 01:03 PM
blt2ski
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Ralph,

A LOT of folks actually store a spin/whisker pole on the mast. So if that is the only place you could store one, do so, makes going down wind a lot easier if you can pole out a jib and main and go down wind this way at times.

You have not said what size your jib(s) are, but if smaller than say a 135 or so, then a J length spin pole IMHO is a better option than a whisker pole. As they are lighter, one zie only tho, a bad part, but lighter and easier to use with smaller headsails. If you have say two or three from a 155 on down, then a whisker pole helps, as I find a pole that is 80% of the LP is the best size to get max use of a winged out head sail. A 155 in most cases like something in the 130-150% of the J length for best wind catching.

Marty
2 Weeks Ago 12:52 PM
RTB
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I'm not arguing that these rigs present a "prevalent" problem among cruisers... I very rarely see cruising boats sailing deep downwind employing a downwind pole to begin with, for example. The preferred mode for those who might actually be sailing, seems to be to drop or furl the main completely, and sail under the headsail alone... For sailors who typically do that, obviously deeply swept spreaders present no problems, whatsoever...
I'm afraid that fits me pretty much. The fact is, on our first leg from Texas to George Town, Bahamas, there was almost no downwind sailing at all. However, on the return trip, there was plenty. 15-20 knots out of the east through south, sailing back on the Banks, and up the west coast of Florida.

The genoa does ok most of the time, but if we get pretty deep downwind, not so good without a whisker pole. Our Hunter 36 doesn't have much deck space, and is pretty used up with the dink and a few fuel jugs.



My furling line runs back on the port side, and I keep it clear. I also go forward on the port side if necessary. I really see no place to store a pole when not in use. I guess it can be mounted out of the way, on the mast?

The dink is our life raft, so stays inflated, and on deck if offshore. I do have room for 4 fenders in the lazarette, along with my Honda generator....

I'm open to suggestions that would improve my boat, and sailing tactics. We don't enjoy rolly situations. Like sailing DDW, but with waves coming from the aft quarter, which happens running up the west coast of Florida quite often.

Ok. Let me have it. Jon, thanks for the offer to buy me a BEER one day. I hope to collect in the future.

Ralph
2 Weeks Ago 11:55 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
No!... No!

It makes no sense to try to figure out how to set and fly a spinnaker in 'ridiculously light conditions'.. it won't behave, be a real B*tch to gybe and generally go badly.

Setting an A sail on a beam reach doesn't need a lot of wind, but trying to run and gybe with any kind of spinnaker needs some reasonable apparent wind so that the sail can be more or less 'flown' through the maneuver. Having 6-8 knots of apparent wind is about right IMO .. Even a bit more is good because once you figure it out your downwind speed will be up to the point that even in 10-12 true you'll only have 4-6 knots apparent.. and your boat should respond well to a properly set kite of any kind.

Do keep in mind, though, that it will be a BIG sail, so have your dousing process thought out well in advance, and maybe do a few dry runs with the sock in 'next to no' wind for starters. But actually flying the sail needs some breeze...
Wait - 10-12 true is ridiculously light in my world. I must be completely whacked.

Seriously - thanks for the feedback Fast. I see what you mean.

Oh, and I will definitely have a sock.
2 Weeks Ago 11:43 PM
Faster
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

And I definitely will take you up on the asym advice! I can't wait to give it a go. But I promise it will be in ridiculously light conditions! I've got a lot to learn about spins.
No!... No!

It makes no sense to try to figure out how to set and fly a spinnaker in 'ridiculously light conditions'.. it won't behave, be a real B*tch to gybe and generally go badly.

Setting an A sail on a beam reach doesn't need a lot of wind, but trying to run and gybe with any kind of spinnaker needs some reasonable apparent wind so that the sail can be more or less 'flown' through the maneuver. Having 6-8 knots of apparent wind is about right IMO .. Even a bit more is good because once you figure it out your downwind speed will be up to the point that even in 10-12 true you'll only have 4-6 knots apparent.. and your boat should respond well to a properly set kite of any kind.

Do keep in mind, though, that it will be a BIG sail, so have your dousing process thought out well in advance, and maybe do a few dry runs with the sock in 'next to no' wind for starters. But actually flying the sail needs some breeze...
2 Weeks Ago 11:29 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I'm not arguing that these rigs present a "prevalent" problem among cruisers... I very rarely see cruising boats sailing deep downwind employing a downwind pole to begin with, for example. The preferred mode for those who might actually be sailing, seems to be to drop or furl the main completely, and sail under the headsail alone... For sailors who typically do that, obviously deeply swept spreaders present no problems, whatsoever...

All I'm saying is that for the sort of sailing that I have done, the deeply swept rigs like the one on the Trintella have presented some real issues on more than one occasion. That's been MY experience, and others I've sailed those boats with have agreed... And, a few others like Harries, Colin Speedie, and the French guy building the Boreal... I'm guessing there are a few more out there as well, but perhaps we are indeed the only sailors on the planet who feel that way, and that the purported advantages of such rigs aren't great enough to overcome the downsides that we have experienced...

We'll agree to disagree, that's what makes the world go 'round, right? :-)

You and your boys should definitely get yourselves an asymetrical, your boat is ideally suited for one... you'll have a blast, IMHO playing with free-flying sails is some of the most fun you can have under sail...

Which makes it all the more perplexing, why I see them used so infrequently by cruising sailors, I just don't get it...
I definitely won't disagree with your experience. It's yours.

And I totally agree with you that most of the cruisers out there sail with only genny/jib when deep downwind...which is why I was having a hard time seeing the problem you were describing with WoW for most cruisers. So it's all good.

And I definitely will take you up on the asym advice! I can't wait to give it a go. But I promise it will be in ridiculously light conditions! I've got a lot to learn about spins.
2 Weeks Ago 09:11 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
I apologize about not finishing my post above. Unfortunately, the Ipad crashed one too many times and I gave up on it. I am including the beginning of the last post that I started so that it reads as a complete thought.
LOL! Yeah, I thought that first post of yours was awfully concise, by your standards...

:-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Which is my take on the aft spreader issue. As to heading dead downwind, as far as heading DDW, raked spreaders don't come into play in my mind. That is what spreader patches were made for. And as my friend Jon Eisberg would say about now *grin*.
Great stuff, as always, Jeff... I doubt I have EVER read a post of yours, where I didn't learn something...

But, you're gonna have to work a bit harder, if you're ever gonna teach me to love deeply raked spreaders on an offshore cruising boat...

(grin, bigtime)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
I have not read Herb's book about the Pardeys but to Herb McCormac's comment, if its any consolation, Herb once told me that I was the biggest internet gasbag he had encountered and somehow I suspect he may have been right that time.

Cheers.
Jeff
Herb doesn't have the time to waste reading forums, anymore... However, if he was up to speed, he'd probably choose his words a bit differently...

You might still rate as the top Gasbag, I'd probably come in as the #1 Blowhard...

:-))
2 Weeks Ago 08:57 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
And in any case, if it were as prevalent a problem for cruisers as you (and I guess Harries) make it out to be, all the new boats (both production and high-end) I've listed above would NOT be moving the direction of swept-back spreaders. I just think that, overall, this is a losing argument for you guys...especially with Jeff's point about the old designs' lowers and all the other stays one had to mess with to manage them.
I'm not arguing that these rigs present a "prevalent" problem among cruisers... I very rarely see cruising boats sailing deep downwind employing a downwind pole to begin with, for example. The preferred mode for those who might actually be sailing, seems to be to drop or furl the main completely, and sail under the headsail alone... For sailors who typically do that, obviously deeply swept spreaders present no problems, whatsoever...

All I'm saying is that for the sort of sailing that I have done, the deeply swept rigs like the one on the Trintella have presented some real issues on more than one occasion. That's been MY experience, and others I've sailed those boats with have agreed... And, a few others like Harries, Colin Speedie, and the French guy building the Boreal... I'm guessing there are a few more out there as well, but perhaps we are indeed the only sailors on the planet who feel that way, and that the purported advantages of such rigs aren't great enough to overcome the downsides that we have experienced...

We'll agree to disagree, that's what makes the world go 'round, right? :-)

You and your boys should definitely get yourselves an asymetrical, your boat is ideally suited for one... you'll have a blast, IMHO playing with free-flying sails is some of the most fun you can have under sail...

Which makes it all the more perplexing, why I see them used so infrequently by cruising sailors, I just don't get it...
2 Weeks Ago 07:55 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bene505 View Post
When sailing WoW, I just let the sail rest agents the spreaders. it reinforced in those spots. Or alternatively we pull the boom in slightly, which seems to fill the head sail better anyway.

Is there a disadvantage in either of those?

Regards,
Brad
Not really, as long as the conditions stay relatively benign... Though I've never really bought into the notion that an over-trimmed main really 'spills' much additional air into a winged-out jib. Sailing WOW/DDW is primarily about simple projection of the sails, and little else. They're not really generating much in the way of lift, you simply want to spread those 'wings' as wide as possible, which effectively maximizes sail area DDW. Perhaps someone like Jeff or Rich H will prove me wrong on that, I'm surely no expert, but that's always been my general impression...

But the disadvantages with deeply swept spreaders begin to come into play as the wind and seas start to build. Normally, I'd want to begin reefing with the main, first. But with the main plastered against the spreaders, that can often be easier said than done, without sheeting the main in to a condition where it is WAY over-trimmed... As a result, I think what many folks wind up doing - and I've done myself - is performing the much more easily accomplished chore of reefing the headsail, instead, and hoping the breeze doesn't build too much more. But of course, this results in a sail plan that has become more unbalanced, and the boat becoming more "pushed along" by the main, rather than "pulled along" by the headsail... Precisely the opposite of what most boats prefer, as wind and seas continue to build...

Please understand, much of my perspective on this stuff is informed by the fact I often sail singlehanded... The sort of 'imbalance' that can result from an overtrimmed main when sailing DDW is far more consequential for a singlehander, who must depend solely upon self-steering gear when going forward to attend to reefing the main, or attending to the pole, or whatever... If one always has a skilled helmsman to rely on keeping the boat in control while such chores are performed, then of course it's a bit less of a concern... But I'm still a big believer in the importance of self-steering for typical Mom & Pop cruisers, or any boat being sailed shorthanded, and that anything that might reduce the effectiveness of an AP or vane has a definite detrimental value...
3 Weeks Ago 06:31 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me Jeff.
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