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Rallies Gone Wrong

128K views 960 replies 76 participants last post by  xort 
#1 ·
#268 · (Edited)
I'm sorry gentlemen and ladies, I really tried to stay out of this, but I just can't.
I've made a dozen or so voyages from the NE to the Caribbean, even one around early February on a 50 footer (there was 2' of snow on the boat when we arrived in Glen Cove, NY to pick up the boat), and I've never had the kind of problems that seem to be popping up with an uncomfortable regularity these days.
Leaving from the mid-Atlantic states is supposed to circumvent the gulfstream/north Atlantic run to Bermuda that has always been a very difficult and frankly, horrible weather trip, at times. Six hours of 40 to 50 knots from the SE followed soon after by a short 4 hour blow of 70 knots from the west; unforecast and unnoticed by any weather service, is not all that unusual when crossing the gulfstream, up there. I've never had an easy, pleasant cake walk to Bermuda from the NE.
Long before gps, satellite weather and offshore rescue, sailors have been making these crossings to the Caribbean without all this drama.
Anyone leaving the mid Atlantic has to know that they will be beating in tradewind conditions (or worse) for about a 1000 miles. Maybe they don't understand what that means, maybe they think they are capable of it because they've made a down wind crossing, I don't know.
I have NEVER had an injury aboard any vessel I was operating, worse than broken fingers, toes or a cracked rib or two and those usually happened in mild weather when everybody was perhaps a bit too relaxed. We've never had to turn around, or call for help, were it available. When it's rough, we do not put ourselves in a position to be injured. We take care. We sleep on the floor, rather than chance being thrown out of a bunk, for instance.
If we were taking on more water than the pumps could handle, then we slowed the ingress; we had no choice; there was nobody to call for help, there weren't even liferafts, early on.
Maybe I've just been lucky, if you can call being capsized three times in a hurricane on a 65 year old wooden boat lucky. In 2010, it was pretty frightening to be standing on the bow, wrestling down a jib in 50 knots of wind, running ddw, peering at the hole below you that seemed to be the entrance to Hades. But when the sail was below on the salon floor, and we'd hove to under the stay sail, that sail was a pretty comfortable bed for an exhausted crew.
I'm sorry, but in this world, we must all be responsible for our own actions and I don't think rally organizers should bear the responsibility for these sailors. If they chose to sail offshore, then they should be capable and able to take anything the weather might dish out. It doesn't make any difference at all what the forecast is, if a front is moving at 15 knots, when you are on a 6 knot boat, offshore. Once you are out there, there you are. Chris Parker probably isn't going to be able to forecast that squall with 60+ knots of wind on the leading edge. But if you are on watch, on the darkest night and you know what to look for, you'll get your all gear down, immediately, before it hits you!
It's called seamanship and it can't be gotten from books, or you tube. It's gotten by going out there in a well found boat and taking your licks and learning lessons. Safety equipment is not a good trade for common sense or experience. Rules and regulations are not the answer, I don't think, or this sport might once again become only for the rich.
 
#269 ·
Thanks Capta. Having guys like you around reminds guys like me that we don't know crap. Thanks for sharing your experience and perspective.

Given the choice I think I would be on your boat for a crossing regardless of whether you had the required amount of spare torch batteries for CAT 1 :)
 
#271 ·
New Zealand also requires CAT 1 of all boats heading overseas.
Ah... no just the NZ flagged boats though they have had a few problems with departing foriegn registered boats.

A guy I know converted his boat to Cat. 1 in NZ. He said it cost him about 100,000NZD to do it. That's not a typo and, prior to converting, the boat was being actively raced so was not a work in progress.
 
#272 ·
I agree with you to a large extent. But if I were to say this - I'd get hammered. This "just go out there" approach works for you guys who already have a great deal of experience. You guys get a pass if things go pear-shaped. For those who don't, if/when they get in trouble they are "idiots" because they weren't prepared...not sailors who are just out there "taking licks and learning lessons". There are plenty of threads on SN where this is in full display.
So, unfortunately, what you lay out just doesn't work in reality for those who don't have your level of experience. For those sailors, safety equipment and knowledge is not a "trade off" - it IS "common sense".[/QUOTE]
Smack,
I wasn't born with the knowledge and experience.
I was raised on the west coast and believe me, it's a lot tougher coast to gain experience on than the right one, with very few safe places to find shelter and many of those with bars.
Every one of us had to go out there in a well found boat and take our licks, without the benefit of the of the "get out of jail, free" card so many are relying on today.
Our boats were heavy, ponderous vessels that could take pretty much whatever Neptune decided to throw at us, though being wooden, they did tended to leak considerably more than the glass boats of today.
But we learned, and after a bunch of coastal trips, often in horrendous conditions, we set off on the adventure of a lifetime and slid across to Hawaii, a trip, as I've said many times, an old lady in a bath tub could make. But getting back is a whole other story!
Perhaps that is the biggest difference; what is considered a "well found" boat today, wasn't even dreamed of in those days. Spade rudders, fractional rigs, alloy spars and glued together hull/deck joints were not the kind of boats available to sailors before the seventies.
I'm not a "world class sailor" I don't think, but I am comfortable in any weather, out there. I sail quite conservatively, preferring not to break things or risk the lives of those sailing with me, for a few extra miles a day. When I was young and learning to sail, I was fortunate enough to have a few real "Cape Horners" (see my signature) to listen to and learn from. People like Miles Smeeton ("Once is Enough") wrote books that were not sea stories, but primers on how to survive a catastrophe at sea.
We all learn at our own pace, but the sea couldn't care less about us, our boats or whether we can handle what she is dishing out; it's nothing personal. If you might get seasick, why would you attempt a thousand miles of windward sailing in the ocean? If you are not comfortable in winds over 40 knots and seas of 12 feet or more, why would you want to almost certainly have to experience it?
This thing we all love, sailing, is not rocket science; folks have been doing it for something like 4000 years. And without a cat 1 rating, life rafts and even boats that could go to windward at all. Most survived; some didn't. If we want to do this, then it is in our best interests to gain all the experience we can, choose a boat suitable for our plans and meet every challenge as a learning experience and reap the rewards of conquering our fears and getting through the difficult parts on our own, not asking others to risk their lives to save us from a completely survivable situation.
Perhaps I am too cocky, with too many years of sailing, to remember the early days of learning through making mistakes, and a bit too critical of others less experienced than I, but I truly think many people are purchasing the wrong boats and relying on safety equipment and rescue, to compensate for their lack of knowledge and preparedness. It is supposed to be fun, a joyous experience of men and women on the sea, alone out there and at peace with nature. The good times should vastly outnumber the bad.
 
#273 ·
the more I learned to sail better and be seamanlike the less I became attached to modern safety equipment...except for a few things that aid navigation ive become a simplicity and KISS advocate...

I also like redundancy but redundancy is often confused with quantity...nowadays you are considered unsafe if you dont have ais, ssb, 2 liferafts 2 dinghies 2 outboards, satelite phone, the works...

yet people forget that ones boat is ones liferaft...very few people nowadays look at the boat in question, they look at the "gear"

times have changed...and Im young but do know this...
 
#275 ·
By 1995 I had done multiple Marion/Bermuda and a Newport Bermuda race as well as several passages to Caribbean. But then in 2002 stopped sailing for 8yrs. The world has changed in those 8yrs. Before no one would contemplate heading offshore except in a fully found boat with all available safety equipment and appropriate crew knowing even the crew with the highest skill set and best weather routing runs a risk of possible gear failure and untoward weather. Resuming offshore sailing these realities remain in spite of recent advances. In my circle of passagemakers I known of no one who does not accept these past and current realities. Once my current boat is fully outfitted and my ( wife's) physical and intellectual skill set brought to appropriate current levels my wife and I will resume not just offshore passages but ocean passages.
To make judgment on either the weather router, the vessel prep or the crew/captain without detailed knowledge of a preventable deficit speaks to the accuser's ignorance of the realities of ocean sailing even with the advances of the last ten years.
As they say "SH-t happens".
 
#276 ·
AIS- foolish to go any where near shipping lanes without it
liferaft with in date inspection- boats sink surprisingly fast- foolish to not have one even if just offshore let alone ocean
sat phone +/or SSB- weather routing progressively less accurate as days go by- usually near worthless after 96h and not even generated for the sailor in meaningful way past 5d. Nice to know- may save your life. Also maybe needed for rescue. Yes I have a recording barometer and my eyes on the clouds but these are rentable and very useful. Cost is not prohibitive.
Radar- tells you local weather and many fish boats don't show up on AIS. Guess what 1/2 your sailing is at night.
The racing requirements make sense. We use them even though we are very conservative, modestly ambitious cruisers. Want to prevent your reading my name in the paper.
 
#279 · (Edited)
Wholeheartedly agree leaving your boat is the last thing you want to do. I have my life earnings in my boat. I love my boat. My chances for survival decrease dramatically if I leave my boat. But having AIS, radar, SSB/satphone etc. means it much less likely I'm going to be hit by weather I could have avoided or at least prepared for or that freighter will sink me. Yes truly foolish to head out to sea in a boat not prepared and built for it. But still think the safety gear decreases risk you will lose the boat or your life.
Lynn/Larry said "you can't buy safety" and they are right. But you can improve your odds with a prepped strong boat, good skill set, and equipment.
 
#280 ·
you cant argue against the above...that is how I think too, having said that MANY many new sailors or novices tend to think equipment saves them and it simply doesnt...

for example as a counterpoint to all the equipment listed before here is my take:

liferaft= to me that means a flotational dinghy that serves both as a liferaft and as a dinghy for normal use, prefferably with a sail kit that would enable more chances if survival by being able to sail somewhere

A liferaft is almost useless once deployed(you cant sail it, and if you havent been able to send a mayday or a correct epirb signal youre as bad as in any uncommunicated vessel) and the amount of people who dont service them correctly is id say around 50%...and even those inspected have been known to NOT deploy, JUST SAYIN.

ais=good watches by skilled crew, if solo I would think about it if going through torres straight or the red sea, etc...or just get their receiver...

radar? the number of boats Ive been on who say its been useful to them in a circumnav is close to zero...fog and HEAVY shipping lanes its ok, having said that on the boat I completed close to a circumnavigation we used it twice...

ssb= great for keeping your spirits up when lonely...good for boat to boat communication long range and ok for sending out urgent info and or calls for help I say ok cause there is always the chance that it will get wet and fail at the worst time, LIKE ANY electrical equipment.

satphone= I still like the idea...and would probably rent one if I raced an ocean race or something, but I wouldnt say leaving port without one as being unsafe.

epirb= yeah, they are cheap now compared to 20 years ago...honestly depending on where id cruise now I think spot messengers are a better deal...but thats just my opinion!

lastly id think more about having potable water, food...redundant systems like a gps, batteries, flares and liferaft equipment ready to go in a ditchbag in a dinghy than having your boat become the next nasa space shuttle...BUT again thats just my opinion.

cheers
 
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#281 · (Edited)
Smack, I keep forgetting about your actual experience level. What is telling is you refer to things like SAS attendance and ISAF compliance in the future tense. You even gone so far as offer curriculum changes (how to abandon your boat and be rescued) without having actually attended a seminar or have any practical experience. SAS is merely a seminar meant to augment an already established knowledge/ experience base and the ISAF Special Regulations is a pamphlet and check sheet. They by themselves, will not magically keep you from harm.

Your statement that you could join the SDR with your admitted lack of experience, but you will wait until you can qualify for the C1500 still indicates that you expect others to tell you (through their requirements) that you a ready for such a trip. Remember and learn from Regatta Dog's unfortunate voyage - The Transpac has both the SAS and ISAF requirements and a lot more - actual inspections, resumes, drills etc. - And look what happened to them. Grasshopper, I will let you know when it is time for you to voyage on your own. But first, you must snatch this pebble from my hand…



The ISAF requirement for a successful rally is a spurious one. Nowhere has it been stated that the boats that had problems were not Cat 1 compliant. If you want to draw any wild conclusions, it should be that it is better to adhere to a strict schedule than let skippers decide themselves on the appropriate time to leave within an open ended window. Remember the C1500 had a single departure date and the SDR a suggested "window". What is more important here is the fact that out of six vessels declaring emergencies including four boats with rudder problems and two dismasting's, only two boats were ultimately abandoned. The sailors who were able to jury rig ought to be commended for their superior seamanship and not denigrated for having bad luck.
 
#284 · (Edited)
Lots here that's not quite right.

Smack, I keep forgetting about your actual experience level. What is telling is you refer to things like SAS attendance and ISAF compliance in the future tense. You even gone so far as offer curriculum changes (how to abandon your boat and be rescued) without having actually attended a seminar or have any practical experience. SAS is merely a seminar meant to augment an already established knowledge/ experience base and the ISAF Special Regulations is pamphlet and check sheet. They by themselves, will not magically keep you from harm.
It's true I've not yet personally attended an SAS seminar. But I had conversations with Sheila McCurdy and Ron Trossbach about the SAS curriculum. Those conversations were not about "changing the curriculum" - but potentially adding the AMVER info to it. Those conversations are continuing. So I understand what SAS (and ISAF) is and what it isn't.

Furthermore, the information I provided in the article is directly from the experts - not me. As a writer, I don't have to personally experience climbing from a sailboat onto a freighter in the middle of the Pacific to pull together accurate information about the process. I just have to talk to the right people. And I did (e.g. - USCG AMVER Director and SAR controller, three ship captains, and others).

Bottom line: I'm not trying to be something I'm not, George. This is just information that I find very valuable as an avid sailor learning to be a better sailor. I think other sailors find it valuable as well.

The fundamental problem is that the number of U.S. sailors seeking out voluntary safety training is very, very low. If you value safety and the knowledge surrounding it - and understand the impact it has on how sailors deal with emergencies (and the implications of that) - then you understand that this is a problem. My position is that any organization that promotes big passages like this is a great place to expand that training and knowledge. Nothing more than that.

As for ISAF and SAS "magically keeping you from harm" - I don't think anyone but you has floated that ridiculous notion.

Your statement that you could join the SDR with your admitted lack of experience, but you will wait until you can qualify for the C1500 still indicates that you expect others to tell you (through their requirements) that you a ready for such a trip.

Grasshopper, I will let you know when it is time for you to voyage on your own. But first, you must snatch this pebble from my hand…

Those aren't pebbles dude. And you're really not getting it.

My statement about not joining the SDR because of my lack of experience is fully my own assessment of where I currently stand in terms of offshore knowledge and experience. I don't need anyone, including you, to tell me whether or not I'm ready for a passage. I know for myself. I'm just being honest about my own assessment. I'm not blowing smoke.

I'll attend an SAS seminar and I'll use the ISAF regs as educational/preparation tools because I see value in them - and I'll continue to sail offshore to build experience. If you think that equates to "asking permission to go", you really are blind, Master Po.

My point on this regarding the SDR is that I currently meet the requirements to go...as does someone with even far fewer offshore miles than I have (a "single bluewater passage"). Going back to what capta said above - I think that would be a very bad idea for that level of experience.

So, I'm left to assume that you're saying a single bluewater passage is plenty of experience for a November Gulfstream passage from the Chessie to the BVIs...and that safety training and standards are for wusses who need permission.

Well, I don't buy that. Period.

The ISAF requirement for a successful rally is a spurious one. Nowhere has it been stated that the boats that had problems were not Cat 1 compliant.
ISAF's not at all "spurious" unless you want to assume it "magically protects" sailors. And what exactly are your definitions of a "successful" rally?

Again, ISAF is simply a safety/preparation standard. And if you're one who believes in high safety standards, utilizing the ISAF standard AND/OR upping the experience-level/qualifications for entry would be a very good thing.

It's weird. You really seem threatened by this. I've not seen you this aggro about something in all the years I've been posting here. And it's especially weird that you are an ocean racer and operate under these regs - but don't seem to see the value in them for cruisers.

Whatever. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

If you want to draw any wild conclusions, it should be that it is better to adhere to a strict schedule than let skippers decide themselves on the appropriate time to leave within an open ended window. Remember the C1500 had a single departure date and the SDR a suggested "window". What is more important here is the fact that out of six vessels declaring emergencies including four boats with rudder problems and two dismasting's, only two boats were ultimately abandoned. The sailors who were able to jury rig ought to be commended for their superior seamanship and not denigrated for having bad luck.
I'll let you fight the schedule thing out with Jon - because he was saying the exact opposite regarding a strict departure date.

Finally, I don't recall ever denigrating these sailors. My constant focus has been on the organizational side of things. Those sailors that did the jury rigging should indeed be commended. But I don't yet understand from the info thus far whether Maydays were sent first - which would be a potential issue (back to how sailors deal with emergencies).
 
#282 · (Edited)
Christian- Your comments are greatly appreciated and clearly grounded in experienced good judgment. For present I'm not circumnavigating and expect I never will. I plain to do ocean passages in the context of a cruising lifestyle. For present have been doing 3-6d passages that involve multiple crossings of shipping lanes and dealing with fish boats, barges/tows, folks on charter boats and all the head aches of marine traffic. This clearly skews my thinking and suggests the need for radar/AIS etc.
The spot is a good idea. We have a 48h EPIRB on a bracket next to the ditchbag, a spot on my harness and a personal 24h epirb on the admiral's harness. Our thinking is the vast majorities of rescues occur within a day or two in the waters we travel -sometimes hours.
We have a raft in a built in box by the sugarscoop. It's light so she can deploy it. Our thinking is to only deploy it in case of uncontrolled fire or rapid sinking. We have beyond the supplies in the raft food/water/first aid supplies in the ditchbag.
But the boat is the thing. It has a watertight bulkhead forward and true set up for storm sails/Jordan series drogue. Its a strong well built boat that's comfortable in a seaway. We are learning in increments about our boat and ourselves. This year have done three 450m+ passages. Next year have two 750-1300m passages planed. We cruise with 2-4 people on board. We hope to ultimately to be able to do our passages with just two.
Problem I have is with folks not willing to accept the needed work on themselves and their boats and their equipment with the expectation- nothing will break, it will always be 10-20 on the aft quarter and if things get bad they can just call for help and bail out.
I don't see how any of the boats in the salty dawg fit that description.
 
#283 ·
youve done more than most ever will regarding their boat...my first big cruise was on my leaky wooden h28...no such thing as watertight anything on that boat! jajaaj did that stop me? no

(we only took epirb for example because it was a requirement for the baja ha ha rally from california to mexico)

95% cruisers dont ever add watertight bulkheads, most never add dedicated storm sails...etc..etc...

I cant tell you the amount of people that take 100 cases of toilet paper, and half of costcos supllies in food etc...instead of focusing on other stuff
honestly you cant learn to cruise coastal or offshore unless you start doing it, you do learn A LOT along the way...racing the learning curve is exponentially higher as you are taking everything to the limit and then some...

anyways...I like it when skippers and crew put more responsibilty on themselves than on gear and in some cases the boat

we used to run into A lot if cruisers who had the autopilot on LEAVING port for example...I mean seconds after hauling anchor...they had it all planned out to the T...that mentality is damaging and negligent...crusiing and even racing offshore is a delicate balancing act of COMPROMISE


cheers

sorry for the thread derail btw
 
#295 ·
If you have a Mayday you should use all means to your disposal to alert SAR. On a Pan Pan you cannot use an Epirp or an automatic emergency VHS signal.

The question with some boats in this Rally is not that but to know if they had a Pan Pan situation or a Mayday, even if they started a Mayday.

These has been discarded at some as not important but on the courses I have taken for getting the different licences this as all safety issues are regarded as fundamental.

On the examination test you can fail a percentage of questions but you cannot fail any safety question.

I am sure that nobody walks out with a licence, even an intermediate one without knowing what is the difference between a Pan Pan and a Mayday or in what situations one can start a Mayday.

Regards

Paulo
 
#292 ·
its a new class of BOY IN THE BUBBLE sailboat design...a design that enables you to NOT enjoy all the pleasures of normal sailing while letting you enjoy the inside space of a small tent...

jajaja
 
#293 · (Edited)
I don't see anything inherently wrong with the enclosures. Maybe more of it depends on the sailor than the setup.

Remember, Michael had a full enclosure (and dinghy on davits) on his Hunter 45 as they weathered the F10-11 off Cape Horn:

Sequitur











After breakfast on Wednesday morning we started with cleaning-up from the heavy weather. Down below, we had sustained a broken bowl and a chipped candle holder. Up top the Hydrovane suffered a bent retaining pin and a sheared one. I hadn't removed the sail from the unit, and the hurricane-force gusts were a tad much for the pins.

The only other damage I could find was that our foghorn speaker had been blown off its mount on the mast and had disappeared overboard.
So maybe it's not the boat.
 
#299 · (Edited)
I don't see anything inherently wrong with the enclosures. Maybe more of it depends on the sailor than the setup.

Remember, Michael had a full enclosure (and dinghy on davits) on his Hunter 45 as they weathered the F10-11 off Cape Horn:

Sequitur











So maybe it's not the boat.
Smack, obviously a big enclosure like the one on the boat posted by Jon or on the boat you have post has not any inconvenient only at the marina and even so if the wind is not very strong.

I know that Michael circumnavigate with one even if I **** improbable that he did not take it down with a F11. If he did not he should have to maximize his changes of coming out of it without problems.

It has to do with physics and boat design:

A big enclosure makes for a much bigger windage with all inconvenient windage has and in what regards a breaking wave it offers a much bigger and higher surface to the wave giving it a much bigger potential to roll the boat.

In practical terms and considering sailing with one on it is has if the boat has that shape and surface in solid materials. That would make for a very ugly sailboat but it is not for that reason that you don't see sailboats with hugely high cabins covering all the boat but with many other reasons that have to do with boat performance, safety and efficiency.

Regards

Paulo
 
#294 ·
again depends where you cruise...

one thing is for sure, high davits and a dinghy for a longa passage is disaster waiting to happen on medium size boats...especially if they are made of thin stainless and not through bolted below the deck

the number of davits that crack from a simple wave hitting the dinghy a certain way has been extensively reported many times...especially on smaller boats where its more possible

not to mention again windage

youd be surprised how much that affects downwind sailing or trying to to sail tight...the stern constantly wants to constanty slip under you effectively making you have too much weather helm
 
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#300 ·
Smack, yes, I haven’t been caught up in one of your fur balls since the time you tried to lecture me on the use of sea anchors, drogues and heavy air tactics. If you do some basic research first, then we might have a useful dialog over the efficacy of Cat1 regs for cruisers. First and foremost, the special regs is a racing document. It stated as such on the title page. Yes, I have to follow Cat1 for all races past Bonita Point. Do I like that? Not really insomuch that no non-racing boats have to be covered for sailing the same waters. Read the regs, fill out the checklist, then we can have an intelligent conversation about them. Did you know that from the photos you posted from Sequester, that it is not Cat1 compliant? Should they not have been allowed to go offshore let alone around the Cape?
 
#301 · (Edited)
Smack, yes, I haven't been caught up in one of your fur balls since the time you tried to lecture me on the use of sea anchors, drogues and heavy air tactics. If you do some basic research first, then we might have a useful dialog over the efficacy of Cat1 regs for cruisers. First and foremost, the special regs is a racing document. It stated as such on the title page. Yes, I have to follow Cat1 for all races past Bonita Point. Do I like that? Not really insomuch that no non-racing boats have to be covered for sailing the same waters. Read the regs, fill out the checklist, then we can have an intelligent conversation about them. Did you know that from the photos you posted from Sequester, that it is not Cat1 compliant? Should they not have been allowed to go offshore let alone around the Cape?
George, I know full well that the ISAF Cat1 Regs are for racers. I have a copy on my desk of the 2010-2011 issue, along with the USS' "Safety Recommendations for Cruising Sailboats" both of which were generously sent to me by Ron Trossbach when I was talking with him. And I've read them both - and continue to do so ("basic research" you know).

The C1500's regs are ISAF-based - from their website:

Our requirements are based on the ISAF standards, and include: an offshore liferaft with a more than 24 hour pack, 406MHz EPIRB, a means of sending and receiving email at sea (satellite phone or SSB/pactor), AIS receiver and man-overboard equipment. We also require every person onboard to have an inflatable combined lifejacket-harness (PFD) with a spray hood, crotch strap and safety line.
ISAF is used in these cruising rallies for cruisers. It's modified for their use, of course, but it's still ISAF. That's a good approach and is all I've been advocating since the beginning.

So, if you can get past the personal digs, then, yes, we can have a useful dialog on this. It's not like I'm making this stuff up.

As for Sequitur, he wasn't participating in a rally. He can make his own calls...and has done very, very well doing so - precisely because he has the experience to do so (not just a single bluewater passage). You keep conflating what I'm talking about in terms of rally organizations with individual cruisers. Enforcing regs on individual cruisers has never been my point. Personally I don't care what individual cruisers choose to do (though I think it would be a great idea for us cruisers as a whole to get more safety training). I do care what rally organizers choose to do...especially when things go pear-shaped.

(PS - I don't remember lecturing you on that stuff. Where was it?)
 
#302 ·
Smack- Chris and George have been trying to point out simple stuff that makes life easier and safer. We did race in the past. We don't race now. But it's the same ocean with the same risks even for us cruisers. Abstracting wisdom from the racers seems like a real good idea. Just like other stuff not in the rules such as keeping weight off the ends of the boat. Lashing down the dinghy of the fore deck and doing everything possible to decrease windage. Getting rid of anything possible that may hurt you in a pooping or knock down. Smack I think you are a smart guy. ?Why are we arguing about this? When I leave the boat is set up for all foreseen possibilities contingencies. I sailed during the no name storm. There was a missing buoy report. We left Rockport Maine for Duxbury Mass and caught holy hell. Like Ronnie said "trust but verify" and the kids say sh-t happens- deal with it.
 
#303 ·
Smack- Chris and George have been trying to point out simple stuff that makes life easier and safer. We did race in the past. We don't race now. But it's the same ocean with the same risks even for us cruisers. Abstracting wisdom from the racers seems like a real good idea. Just like other stuff not in the rules such as keeping weight off the ends of the boat. Lashing down the dinghy of the fore deck and doing everything possible to decrease windage. Getting rid of anything possible that may hurt you in a pooping or knock down. Smack I think you are a smart guy. ?Why are we arguing about this?
Out, I agree with everything you just wrote; especially the bolded part - and especially in the context of a cruising rally.

So I don't know why there's so much argument against it. I think you're asking the wrong guy on that one.
 
#307 ·
I didnt read the whole report...BUT I read the first paragraph regarding again AUTOPILOTS

it is possible you know to break a tiller or wheel or any part of of the steering system by IMPROPER use of an autopilot

we once cracked the tilller easily by simply not paying attention to what our basic little tiller pilot was telling us

if it was beeping it can be a number of errors, sever weather helm or being overpowered is one of them
again JUST SAYIN
 
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#316 ·
Sometimes, the choice just comes down to heaving-to, fore-reaching, streaming a drogue, or simply steering the damn boat...

My friend Glenn at the helm of a Trintella 50, in the Stream about 60 miles E of Hatteras in early December, NW breeze @ 25-35, the Raymarine autopilot did OK for about 90% of the time... It's what might happen that remaining 10% of the time, is the reason for steering 100% of the time...

If you can't accept that tradeoff, stick to the ICW :)

 
#308 · (Edited)
Thanks for the additional first-hand info, Jon. It's good to see how the distress call went. So there's one off the "Mayday first" list.

Do you (or anyone else) know of any other rudder failures like this on the C42? I assume this is pretty rare?

BTW - on our recent off-shore in the 10'-12'ers, the linear-drive AP broke off its mounts (on a Pearson 365 Ketch). We thought we'd lost steerage for while (helm was stuck hard over) until I jumped into the lazarette and figured out the problem.
 
#310 ·
Interesting note on the autohelm issues. Were they running in a confused following or quartering sea? I wonder if the two Cat boats had the Raymarine ST7000 or 7000+? Even with the fast heading sensor and computer “brain”, my experience is they are a little slow to react even with the sensitivity, and response times set all the way to the max. They never really anticipate a wave especially in a really confused sea and they do more reactive than proactive steering. The boat then tends to yaw more than my liking. Also, were they set to a wind angle or course heading? My guess is the autohelm put the rudder all the way over to hard stop on a stalled rudder and the resulting water pressure from the next wave snapped the blade. Sometimes it is better to momentarily steer into the round up (or round down) to reestablish water flow over the rudder before you make your correction. A good helmsman can do it but I’m not always sure that a computer can.
 
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