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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Production Boats and the Limits
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Thread: Production Boats and the Limits Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
2 Hours Ago 02:21 AM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgenl View Post
So, Jon - what is different with the Morris ? Front cabin / V-berth seems similar.
Nothing inherently wrong with that berth, not much else that can be done with a quarter cabin... I used that accomodation plan to illustrate the lack or storage space for the sort of gear one typically needs for extended cruising, and how virtually the entire interior volume of that boat is given over to accommodation space...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgenl View Post
Any anectodotal evidence that portlights in the hull are a problem, or just unfounded opinion?
Well, despite the fact that numerous vessels have been lost in incidents in which the loss of hatches/ports/windows was one of the critical occurrences in a series of cascading failures (the loss of the Hardin 45 ALMEISAN enroute to Bermuda in 2005 is one that comes to mind)... But, yeah, my opinion that sticking what appears to be an inward-opening portlight secured by plastic dogs in the hull of a fiberglass yacht might not be the best idea, is most likely without any foundation whatsoever.... :-)

But, since you asked, here's an anecdote, anyway...

About 25 years ago, I was delivering one of these Marine Trader 50s down south, and around to Tampa... You'll notice these things have 3 heavily-constructed Taiwanese bronze opening ports in the transom:



I was sitting off the entrance to St Lucie Inlet on what was basically a flat calm day, but with a moderate long period swell running... St Lucie was pretty dicey in those days, so in that situation it paid to just sit there awhile, observing the pattern of the swell, in an effort to pick the right time to make the run in over the bar...

Suddenly, a series of 3 or 4 much larger and steeper 'rogues' materialized. There was no time to attempt to spin around, only thing I could do was try to square the stern to the sea, and hang on...

The first sea crested and broke squarely on the transom. In an instant, we were surfing in a mass of white water at over hull speed, but with very little rudder control due to the aerated water. It was a miracle we somehow managed to keep the thing pointed straight and avoid laying that pig over on her side. To this day, those 15 seconds or so remain one of the hairiest experiences I've ever had on the water...

After we were over the bar in inside to smooth water, my girlfriend went below for a quick damage assessment... Wasn't long before she called up, "You better come down here, and have a look at this..." :-)

The aft stateroom was a disaster zone, it looked like a small bomb had gone off... All 3 ports had been completely blown out, there was broken glass everywhere, and the amount of water that had been shipped by that single wave strike was astonishing... So much so, that my first thought was that we had suffered more damage to the rudders or something, and were taking on water... That boat featured a corridor between the engine rooms that led forward to the mid stateroom, which in turn opened to the forward stateroom. There was water, and bits of glass, that had been blown all the way up into that forward stateroom... In addition, the entire swim platform had been bent downward at an angle of 10-15 degrees by the incredible power of the impact...

So, yeah, after that experience, I've always been a bit leery about the wisdom of putting portlights and picture windows in the hulls of sailboats, and then taking them offshore... But, hey, that's probably just me... :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgenl View Post
(yeah I've seen the picture of the boat in Charleston City Marina, not the boats problem, idjit owner....)
Certainly, that crew made a very stupid decision to put themselves in that position... but I think you miss the point, with an untimely engine failure, or another vessel dragging anchor or losing control, there are all manner of conceivable scenarios in which any skipper exercising good judgement and proper seamanship - with a bit of bad luck, through no fault of one's own - might easily find himself in a similar type of situation...


Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
You guys really crack me up.

Are you that lazy of a skipper that you want the boat company to glue all your portlights shut for you so you won't forget to stay afloat while knocked down in an F10? Remember all that Hunter freeboard you like to gripe about? How else are you going to dunk that baby?



What about the portlights in the cockpit? Yet another "deathtrap" awaiting the hapless skipper when boarded by a humongous following sea.
Uhhh, are you referring to those things on the transom? Those are not portlights, but rather appear to be a pair of undersized access hatches to some sort of transom storage locker... Looks like you'd be lucky to squeeze a typical washdown bucket through one of those things, though it had better be 'bendable'... But, getting anything back OUT of those spaces, that would probably be the fun part... :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
And have you never seen the escape hatches in the bottoms many multis?

I think you guys might need training wheels.
Better add that guy Steve Dashew to the list of sailors who need training wheels, as well... His knowledge and experience re the design, engineering and construction of sailing yachts intended for offshore obviously pales in comparison to that of some of the experts around here... :-)

From his OFFSHORE CRUISING ENCYCLOPEDIA:
Quote:

"In spite of anything you might read in manufacturer's catalogs, there's no such thing as a 100% watertight opening window, unless it is heavily made from cast (not extruded) metal with dogs placed at close centers around the perimeter. While they may be okay most of the time in a trunk cabin side, used in a hull side they're nothing but trouble."
5 Hours Ago 11:40 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile1 View Post
Well, it is an interesting conversation Smack, but there are a couple of things I would add to your comments. First, the 27-year old Bristol is probably done depreciating in large part, assuming its condition is maintained of course. But according to Polux, new production boats depreciate about 50% after 5 years. So now you're talking about trading in a 5 year-old production boat that might be worth $100K less than what you could get after those same 5 years with the comparably sized Bristol. Of course, new high-end boats will also get hit hard by depreciation, but that's not the comparison you're making. So I don't think it's quite as simple as whatever your time horizon may be for owning the boat.
Yeah, this comes up a lot. But, again, you're only focusing on one part of the equation. The amount of money that will go into that 27-year-old Bristol for maintenance and upgrades will be FAR, FAR more than will go into that 1 year old production boat for same.

You're paying either way...or you're neglecting your aging boat. (Your example of the Bristol on YW and the $100K+ bath the dude took illustrates this perfectly.)

As always, I think the smartest money is to buy the 3-5 year-old production boat. That seems to be the sweet-spot value-wise when looking at depreciation vs. maintenance and upgrades.

As for the rest of your post above - I agree.
5 Hours Ago 11:31 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
C'mon, out - that's only there for the Boat Shows, you don't think that's actually for sleeping, do you?

Looks more like a space to be dedicated to FENDER STOWAGE, to me... :-)

Anyone going out for more than a weekend away from a marina on one of those, you're gonna have to convert one of those aft playpens into a garage...




Hmmm, an OPENING PORTLIGHT in the hull??? Yeah, what could POSSIBLY go wrong... :-)


You guys really crack me up.

Are you that lazy of a skipper that you want the boat company to glue all your portlights shut for you so you won't forget to stay afloat while knocked down in an F10? Remember all that Hunter freeboard you like to gripe about? How else are you going to dunk that baby?



What about the portlights in the cockpit? Yet another "deathtrap" awaiting the hapless skipper when boarded by a humongous following sea.

And have you never seen the escape hatches in the bottoms many multis?

I think you guys might need training wheels.
5 Hours Ago 11:04 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Does it have bungle boards or another way to actually be usable in a seaway?

Come on Smack, I've always viewed you as a real BFS sailor. Could you sleep there?
Out, c'mon...seriously. Surely you're not this unimaginative.

If this is the Hunter you mean:



Can you really not see places you can rig a lee cloth in this photo for either tack?

I guarantee you I could rig perfectly good sea berths on this boat for a BFS. AND I would then be super-freakin' comfortable in that pimpin' centerline queen at anchor.

I would absolutely choose a boat like this over one with a coffinesque quarter-berth.
7 Hours Ago 09:26 PM
jorgenl
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
C'mon, out - that's only there for the Boat Shows, you don't think that's actually for sleeping, do you?

Looks more like a space to be dedicated to FENDER STOWAGE, to me... :-)

Anyone going out for more than a weekend away from a marina on one of those, you're gonna have to convert one of those aft playpens into a garage...




Hmmm, an OPENING PORTLIGHT in the hull??? Yeah, what could POSSIBLY go wrong... :-)


So, Jon - what is different with the Morris ? Front cabin / V-berth seems similar.

Oh yeah - the Morris has a forward galley - good for sangers underway isn't it? Especially considering the lack of impossible to retrofit handholds....

Any anectodotal evidence that portlights in the hull are a problem, or just unfounded opinion? (yeah I've seen the picture of the boat in Charleston City Marina, not the boats problem, idjit owner....)
8 Hours Ago 09:00 PM
aeventyr60
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

"Where do you come up with this stuff????? I have a 14 year old Hunter and the biggest hardest to do age problem I've had to do was replace the head hoses?"

I understand Hunters age well at the dock. How much sailing have you actually done on your boat. It is going to be a different story once you get offshore. If the the hardest thing you've had to do is replace a head hose then a whole new world of hurt is coming your way.
8 Hours Ago 08:12 PM
Exile1
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
C'mon, out - that's only there for the Boat Shows, you don't think that's actually for sleeping, do you?

Looks more like a space to be dedicated to FENDER STOWAGE, to me... :-)

Anyone going out for more than a weekend away from a marina on one of those, you're gonna have to convert one of those aft playpens into a garage...




Hmmm, an OPENING PORTLIGHT in the hull??? Yeah, what could POSSIBLY go wrong... :-)


Who cares about an opening portlight in the hull when I just looked it up and discovered you are absolutely correct -- it's "DOWDY" not "DOUGHTY!" In fact, "doughty" means brave & persistent (must be another Brit word) -- character traits I wouldn't necessarily deny Smack's gal from a few posts ago, but clearly doesn't apply to the Morris' salon cushions. (Don't worry Jon, I love Morris' just not those particular cushions.). Just when I thought I had the pennant/pendant thing figured out too. As for Smack's squeeze, she doesn't look dingy but her clothes do seem a tad dingy, no? All I can say is I'd be a bit scared to let her ride in my dinghy.

9 Hours Ago 07:54 PM
Exile1
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
To me - this gets to the REAL heart of the matter...that is, longevity.

Let's start with the Hunter to Bristol comparison. Both are 20-year-old boats. The 20-year-old Hunter seems to be having real issues, the Bristol is apparently not.
Now, discounting the fact that this kind of anecdotal comparison really doesn't mean much, let's stick with it as a straight-across comparison.

The takeaway would be that IF YOU WANT A BOAT THAT YOU WANT TO OWN AND SAIL HARD FOR 20 YEARS - Hunter is not a great choice. Bristol, or Hinckley, or Morris, or IP, or whatever would be a much better choice.

Now, I honestly don't think anyone around here would argue that point. I wouldn't.

BUT, if owning and sailing a single boat for 20 years is NOT what you're after, things start to change pretty drastically when you begin to look at shorter-term value (as Chall is talking about above).

IF you want a boat that you're going to sail for maybe 5-7 years before moving to something "better" (like most people seem to do) - then the calculus is very different. Why pay a "20-year premium" for something you're not going to derive that value from?

In this case, buying a much, much newer production boat for roughly the same amount as a 20-year-old "bluewater boat" can start to make a lot more sense.

Now, this brings us to the Beneteau example - a new boat gone bad. I see these kinds of anecdotal stories all the time. New boats "falling apart in benign conditions". I'm not saying this guy's Bene isn't falling apart - but I AM saying that that doesn't seem to be a common scenario in the thousands of Benes that are out there plying blue water. They are not all "falling apart".

So, as usual, it just depends on what you want, and what you can afford, when you buy a boat.

If I have the choice between this 27-year-old Bristol 53 at $350K and this 1 year old Jeanneau SO 50 at $399K...I'll take the Jeanneau without hesitation.

So, at the end of the day, maybe the actual lesson here is that modern production boats have a "best-by" date of maybe 10 years or so before they start having problems that outweigh their value. In other words, maybe they are "disposable" to some degree?

I think that is an interesting conversation.
Well, it is an interesting conversation Smack, but there are a couple of things I would add to your comments. First, the 27-year old Bristol is probably done depreciating in large part, assuming its condition is maintained of course. But according to Polux, new production boats depreciate about 50% after 5 years. So now you're talking about trading in a 5 year-old production boat that might be worth $100K less than what you could get after those same 5 years with the comparably sized Bristol. Of course, new high-end boats will also get hit hard by depreciation, but that's not the comparison you're making. So I don't think it's quite as simple as whatever your time horizon may be for owning the boat.

Here's another example that is also probably on Yachtworld if you're interested in more detail. There's a Bristol 51 or 53 that was on the market for awhile in the mid-$300K range. After not selling, the owner took it off the market, did over $100K worth of upgrades/improvements, and then re-listed it for $20-30 less (as I recall). Leaving aside whether Bristol's are your cup of tea or production boats are mine, I only mention this to demonstrate the opportunities that are out there for buyers, and have been since the 2007-08 recession hit. While I would agree that many of these older boats are projects, many others are lightly used boats that have been well cared for. This should also be reflected in the price, and if not it probably will be with a prospective buyer's due diligence and market-driven leverage.

Secondly, I'm not sure what design or construction properties go into your calculus when it comes to longevity. I'm not questioning it, just saying I don't know. This too may have more to do with owner maintenance as Don points out. Then again, there are 1000's of individual components that go into a boat, and they can all deviate significantly on quality & price. Just take the all-important shackle that secures your chain to your anchor -- do you want the cheaper no-name one on the shelf at WM, or a more expensive one made by Crosby, for example? Well, the reality is that the WM one may last you a year or two before rusting out, so maybe that's good enough. But repeat that for the choices a mfg. makes on the quality of wiring, plumbing, hoses, rigging, paint, gelcoat, etc., etc. and you can see what I mean. Apparently there's a lot of variations on how an original owner can kit out their new production boat, so part of it's ultimate longevity may depend on this variable alone. Personally, I agree with outbound that quality is generally commensurate with price. When it comes to boats, I don't believe price is necessarily proportional to quality, but I believe it is commensurate nonetheless.

But I think the bottom line on longevity probably has more to do with economics than maybe anything else. Production boats are much less expensive to purchase (new or used), are mfg. in much larger quantities, and depreciate more. This makes them less valuable (financially & perhaps otherwise) to many owners as they age. At some point down the line, some owner questions whether replacing an engine, standing rigging, or other big-ticket refit item is worth it as compared to the boat's value, and suddenly the boat may find itself scrapped. Now compare that to the old, well-kept Bristol, Hinckley, Morris, Swan, etc., and you'll find plenty of old ones with new engines, rigging, & Awlgrip, and looking & performing as good as new.
9 Hours Ago 07:52 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Does it have bungle boards or another way to actually be usable in a seaway?

Come on Smack, I've always viewed you as a real BFS sailor. Could you sleep there?
C'mon, out - that's only there for the Boat Shows, you don't think that's actually for sleeping, do you?

Looks more like a space to be dedicated to FENDER STOWAGE, to me... :-)

Anyone going out for more than a weekend away from a marina on one of those, you're gonna have to convert one of those aft playpens into a garage...




Hmmm, an OPENING PORTLIGHT in the hull??? Yeah, what could POSSIBLY go wrong... :-)


10 Hours Ago 06:44 PM
outbound
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Does it have bungle boards or another way to actually be usable in a seaway?

Come on Smack, I've always viewed you as a real BFS sailor. Could you sleep there?
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