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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Is flying a pirate flag lame?
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Thread: Is flying a pirate flag lame? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
1 Hour Ago 12:56 PM
DRFerron
Re: Is flying a pirate flag lame?

I think everyone should agree to disagree and keep the fires banked. Pirate flags, anchors, boats, we're passionate about what we like and dislike.

tdw's buying eggnog for the room. Tell him I said so.
1 Hour Ago 12:46 PM
SENCMac26x
Re: Is flying a pirate flag lame?

Wow....I can't believe there so much controversy over something that is already commonly used excessively on bumper stickers, sports logo, restuarant signs, T-shirts, towels, toys and not to mention almost every business open during the summer in southern beach towns flies some version of this.

I have a Jolly Roger and sometimes I do fly when I'm in a playful mood, and I've never been alone on the water to do so.

Sounds like some of you need to fly an insignia with a stick up your butt.
2 Hours Ago 11:16 AM
captain jack
Re: Is flying a pirate flag lame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Once again, Reductio ad absurdum.

One of the very few things you have said that I do agree with is that "prejudice is ignorance." Only you are talking about prejudice here: "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience." People don't choose the color of their skin. They choose to fly flags or display icons. It is not prejudice to reach conclusions based on logic or experience about chosen behaviors.

For that matter, people choose to have themselves tattooed or pierced, or wear their hair in particular ways. In that respect I offer that context is important. So, for that matter is social convention. So are socially consistent priorities. If you want to build a chromed out chopper and decorate your body have at it. Lots of tattoos and piercings and applying for food stamps and welfare?
which illustrates my point about prejudice and fits your description of it quite thoroughly. who in the world builds a chopper while on welfare? seriously? it takes initiative and drive to build a chopper from scratch. there are tons of bikers holding jobs all over the country (the large majority of bikers are working for a living. never met a welfare biker, yet, although i am certain they are out there); many of them professionals like doctors, lawyers, and CEOs. certainly, the large number of tattooed and pierced people you see working should indicate that these things are no clear indication of welfare status or anything else. thanks sir. well done.


Quote:

I think a lot of people will worry about your priorities. It's all in context.

But I digress.

Flying a pirate flag is lame. At least.

I will draw my own conclusions about who you are based on your behavior on this thread. My boat's name is Auspicious. If you will share the name of your Cal 27 perhaps we can simply avoid one another.
i already did.
2 Hours Ago 11:10 AM
captain jack
Re: Is flying a pirate flag lame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Perhaps you should eschew the use of such a laughably "lame" comparison, and return to discussing the installation of twin backstays and the use of a Hobie main, or configuring a cutter rig, or perhaps a self tacking jib, or converting your Cal to a junk rig, and so on, and on, and on...

:-))

Have you ever gotten around to actually sailing that thing yet?
no. not yet. i did a preliminary hull scrape while it was still in the water; getting off most of the barnacles that will need scraped before i do the bottom paint. but, i ran out of decent weather before i had saved up enough to do all that needs done when i haul it; which is now slated for spring.

in the meantime, i've been doing all of the electric and interior work. haven't sailed it yet but i've been living on it part time after i got it to a 'live-able' point. i quite enjoy it and that has shaped my work/plans some. but it's going along well. unfortunately, i ran out of warmer weather before i got to the coach roof addition/modification. it would be nice to have real standing headroom, right now. experiencing what it's like to deal with the pop top low headroom has certainly set my plans for that in stone.

going to insulate it this winter, too. one cabin at a time. i found a really good blog by a couple that did this to their boat and it's very doable and should make it a bit toastier on those really cold nights. right now, i tend to sleep on the port settee when it drops down to the 20s because it is easier to keep the main cabin comfortable than it is to keep both that and the v berth comfortable.

a guy i work with had some used electronics from previous boats laying around, taking up space, so i scored a few radios and some other stuff for free.

the haul out is going to be the big all at once expediture just because a lot of pricier things need done at that time. after that is done, it will all be a downhill run from there. so, as long as there are no disasters, early summer is my realistic sailing goal. on days when i'm overly optimistic, i think mid spring. but, you have to be realistic. everything takes longer and costs more than you think it will. murphy's law.

i am still considering a future conversion to a junk or lug rig but, no rig changes at this point. just enough rig work to get her sailing. that's my present goal: ready to sail and live aboard. anything else is for a future time.

the one thing that is giving me a problem is romoving the interior paint. where it isn't flaking away, it's like iron. i'm afraid to get too aggressive with it because i don't want to hurt the FG underneath. it's been a source of way too much sweat equity, so far. i'd love to find an efficient way to remove it; which i need to do to finish my interior repairs/modifications.

thanks for asking.
3 Hours Ago 10:33 AM
SVAuspicious
Re: Is flying a pirate flag lame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain jack View Post
i believe that's called prejudice. you know, like said normal people thinking you are most likely a criminal because you have black skin. prejudice is ignorance.
Once again, Reductio ad absurdum.

One of the very few things you have said that I do agree with is that "prejudice is ignorance." Only you are talking about prejudice here: "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience." People don't choose the color of their skin. They choose to fly flags or display icons. It is not prejudice to reach conclusions based on logic or experience about chosen behaviors.

For that matter, people choose to have themselves tattooed or pierced, or wear their hair in particular ways. In that respect I offer that context is important. So, for that matter is social convention. So are socially consistent priorities. If you want to build a chromed out chopper and decorate your body have at it. Lots of tattoos and piercings and applying for food stamps and welfare? I think a lot of people will worry about your priorities. It's all in context.

But I digress.

Flying a pirate flag is lame. At least.

I will draw my own conclusions about who you are based on your behavior on this thread. My boat's name is Auspicious. If you will share the name of your Cal 27 perhaps we can simply avoid one another.
7 Hours Ago 06:57 AM
JonEisberg
Re: Is flying a pirate flag lame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain jack View Post

Quote:
That doesn't change the very terrible impact the symbol has developed as a result of Naziism. My sister is a Buddhist (a real one, she is Lama Jamdrom in Kagyu) and we have talked about the issues of symbolism, including this one, with Rinpoche Tai Situpa and Rinpoche Lama Norla also of Kagyu (more or less the Buddhist version of Catholic Jesuits). Symbols do evolve, and most Buddhists avoid the classical uses of the swastika because it has been perverted.
to each his own choice. however, by those standards, christians everywhere should eschew the use of the cross as a religious symbol due to the very many atrocities that were committed under the sign of the cross in Jesus' name.
Perhaps you should eschew the use of such a laughably "lame" comparison, and return to discussing the installation of twin backstays and the use of a Hobie main, or configuring a cutter rig, or perhaps a self tacking jib, or converting your Cal to a junk rig, and so on, and on, and on...

:-))

Have you ever gotten around to actually sailing that thing yet?
9 Hours Ago 04:35 AM
captain jack
Re: Is flying a pirate flag lame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post


1. You'll offend some people. You never know when you'll need the services of that person. Maine Sail is a good example. Got an electrical problem and need help? He may come down to look at your boat and turn out not to be available. He may tell colleagues what he thinks of your judgment - you are more likely to be a difficult customer. Who knows how many other service providers feel the same. Just the association with drunkenness and disruption would put many service providers, including marinas, on edge.

This isn't about political correctness - you can do what you want - you just have to accept the consequences of your behaviors.

2. You'll put people off. Cruisers will be less interested in letting their kids play with yours. You won't get invited to the beach potluck. No one will invite you to the dinghy raft-up. Get on the cruisers net to ask for ideas about a radio or refrigeration problem - you may run into silence.

Now if you don't care if you are associated with the Lake of the Ozarks style of boating you won't care. Just understand you'll pay for that.

Again, it isn't about political correctness - it is about the consequences of acting in ways that lead people to draw their own conclusions. Do what you want.



How about normal people, living their own lives, who reach their own conclusions about who you are based on what you advertise about yourself? Some silly immature symbol that means nothing like what you intend.
well, no matter what you do, you are going to offend someone. if you have long hair there will be people that prejudge you. if you shave your head, same thing. if you wear this type of clothing ofr that type of clothing, there are always idiots that will make foolish assumptions about you and hate you for it. piercings and tattoos? same thing. ride a motorcycle and you just have to be a gang member. any symbol you display may upset someone. wear a cross in some parts of the world, or display an American flag, and you might wind up dead.

"How about normal people, living their own lives, who reach their own conclusions about who you are based on what you advertise about yourself?"

i believe that's called prejudice. you know, like said normal people thinking you are most likely a criminal because you have black skin. prejudice is ignorance.

if someone is ignorant enough to judge me poorly because i fly a jolly roger (or have long hair and a beard or have earings or...), without ever making an attempt to see what kind of person i really am, there is every likelihood that i am not missing anything by missing out on their association.
9 Hours Ago 04:14 AM
captain jack
Re: Is flying a pirate flag lame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Jack, you need to work on being more pithy.

You say we all insisted the jolly has some cultural meaning. I, for one, just think it's lame, immature, sophomoric. Since someone has brought up the confederate flag, I will add that it seems precisely the same to me. Nothing to do with slavery. I've also not registered anyone that suggested anyone couldn't fly one, if they like. This does not mean we can't all live peacefully together. The question was simply posed on whether people think its lame. They mostly do. You can cross your arms and hold your breath, hoping they stop thinking so, but it won't work.

As far as the swastika goes, it crosses cultural lines in the US. It represents one of the worlds greatest atrocities, which cost the lives of 400,000 of our brothers, and remains in use by bigots to this day. For that one, you can't hide behind it's other historic appearances. If anyone flew one from their spreader they would be a pariah. It is what it is. Still.
that was my point, sir. symbols take on meaning as they age and new meaning tends to trump original meaning for most people.

oh, and i never said "all".
10 Hours Ago 04:08 AM
captain jack
Re: Is flying a pirate flag lame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
I can't speak for others, but for my part you can fly any stupid or lame thing you want. The question was "is it lame?" The answer is yes. If you want to defend your right to fly it I don't think you'll get much argument. People do silly things all the time. Can't fix that.



No one has said that. Reductio ad absurdum. Foolish argument.



1. You'll offend some people. You never know when you'll need the services of that person. Maine Sail is a good example. Got an electrical problem and need help? He may come down to look at your boat and turn out not to be available. He may tell colleagues what he thinks of your judgment - you are more likely to be a difficult customer. Who knows how many other service providers feel the same. Just the association with drunkenness and disruption would put many service providers, including marinas, on edge.

This isn't about political correctness - you can do what you want - you just have to accept the consequences of your behaviors.

2. You'll put people off. Cruisers will be less interested in letting their kids play with yours. You won't get invited to the beach potluck. No one will invite you to the dinghy raft-up. Get on the cruisers net to ask for ideas about a radio or refrigeration problem - you may run into silence.

Now if you don't care if you are associated with the Lake of the Ozarks style of boating you won't care. Just understand you'll pay for that.

Again, it isn't about political correctness - it is about the consequences of acting in ways that lead people to draw their own conclusions. Do what you want.



How about normal people, living their own lives, who reach their own conclusions about who you are based on what you advertise about yourself? Some silly immature symbol that means nothing like what you intend.



It's pretty clear at least to me that you have already decided you want to fly the silly thing. You are claiming to be true to yourself. No one is telling you not to be. We're telling you that it is lame. You can say you don't care, but it certainly appears from your intensity that you DO care, and are trying to sway the public perception to your way of thinking. Isn't that really political correctness? "He who screams loudest wins." It reminds me of a teenage kid saying "I have to wear my pants down around my knees to show my individuality; everyone else is doing it." Just stupid.



The victims of piracy. American citizens killed by pirates during a rescue attempt. SY Quest incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .



The swastika goes back much further than that. To my knowledge it has it's roots in Buddhist tradition.
to be precise, it has been a part of traditions all over the world; traditions that are unconnected and have no common association. you might say it's a cultural parallel evolution. in the Germanic cultures it appears in the oldest stone age carvings. buddhism had no connection with prechristian Germanic religion until the viking age. during the viking age, a jade(i believe) buddha statue made it's way north as plunder. by that time, the swastika had been a Germanic religious symbol for a long long time.

and i really doubt that the Native Americans adopted it from the Buddhists. i doubt the Jews did, either.


Quote:
That doesn't change the very terrible impact the symbol has developed as a result of Naziism. My sister is a Buddhist (a real one, she is Lama Jamdrom in Kagyu) and we have talked about the issues of symbolism, including this one, with Rinpoche Tai Situpa and Rinpoche Lama Norla also of Kagyu (more or less the Buddhist version of Catholic Jesuits). Symbols do evolve, and most Buddhists avoid the classical uses of the swastika because it has been perverted.
to each his own choice. however, by those standards, christians everywhere should eschew the use of the cross as a religious symbol due to the very many atrocities that were committed under the sign of the cross in Jesus' name.

Quote:

The Jolly Roger in its many iterations has always been associated with piracy--real piracy--and that has not changed. Ill informed people have often misused symbols and disclaimed responsibility. "I'm just kidding" doesn't change bullying into anything else, for example.

Again it seems that you have made your decision and lots of people sharing information will not change your mind. You have every right (at least in the United States) to fly the silly flag. You'll have to accept the implications of that however. You'll probably sail into a country someday that takes such things more seriously and/or doesn't have the free speech protections you are used to. In the best of conditions you'll be told to remove it; you may be fined.
as far as that goes, if a person goes to countries that do not have free speech, they often have to censor much that is far less controvercial that flying a jolly roger seems to be.

Quote:
I don't think it's terrible. Lots of people in this thread think it is lame. I do too. I think you'll find that lots of people in anchorages and marinas and incidentally sailing nearby will think it is lame. Some of us will go so far as to think it is stupid. If you truly don't care why are you so intense? You have the right to do stupid things.

Do whatever you want, even if it is lame.
actually, i don't really care if anyone thinks it's lame. that's an opinion and you'll notice i never address anyone who simply says they think it's lame. that was, after all, the question of the thread.

however, there are folks that get very upset about the thought someone might choose to fly the jolly roger. either stating or insinuating that anyone flying one, for any reason, is committing some sort of moral atrocity. one recent post implies that simply flying the flag is tantamount to an act of actual piracy. it's those to whom i am responding with my 'heavier' posts.

am i, personally, going to fly the jolly roger? i probably won't fly any flag. it's just another unimportant detail to have to tend to. would i possibly display some artistic representation of the jolly roger somewhere on my boat? sure. i might do that. paint or stickers are something you apply and forget about. nothing to fuss with. of course, i might not, too. that's not why i occasionaly get involved in this thread.
16 Hours Ago 09:20 PM
FSMike
Re: Is flying a pirate flag lame?

Which thing is truly lame -
Flying a pirate flag?
or
Worrying about others opinions?
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