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Pros and cons of steel sailboats

909K views 5K replies 127 participants last post by  Faster 
#1 ·
I'm thinking about making the leap from fiberglass to steel for our next sailboat. We want to do some far flung cruising - maybe even circumnavigate. Our present boat is a 1977 Tartan 37 and while we love it - since we've had a child and possibly will have another one on the way it might get a bit small for a liveaboard situation.
This summer I drove a big, old steel tour boat around the finger lakes and started thinking that steel might be a good way to get my family around the big marble.
I've spent a week in the Caribbean on a glorious aluminium boat but have never sailed a steel one, so I have lots of questions about their performance as cruising boats?
What are some of the better designers to keep and eye out for?
How good are they in the hot climates?
Are there any extra dangers in lightning?
Thanks for any and all advice you can give.
 
#3,718 ·
A family friend was famous for his hilarious malapropisms. One of his best combined barking up the wrong tree with flogging a dead horse to come up with barking up a dead horses ass to express the ultimate in futility.

Seems apropos in the case of trying to convince BS of any technical info.
 
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#3,719 · (Edited)
Brent:
CATARI does not have a production boat style hull to deck joint. It is bonded with glass inside and out as is FRANCIS LEE. So many of your comments about this are not applicable. Not that facts would ever bother you.

As for the new hatch detail. I understand it makes you cranky when faced with design work worlds beyond you capability. No, you can't do it at this level. You just don't have the chops. But no sense being bitter. Relax and enjoy.


As for FRANCIS LEE's rudder. No worries there. It is all carbon fibre, sleaved at the bearings. It is massively strong, will never rust, is monococque and weighs only 80 lbs..
 
#3,720 ·
Looked back at construction details. Believe my hull deck is glassed in as well. Only water I've ever seen in the boat is from the groove in the mast and that only when the boat is in a slip facing stern to the wind in the rain.
Unfortunately JonB is right. You just can't get Brent to face reality. It's psychotic to try. One of the definitions of psychosis is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. To get Brent to realize there are Yugos and Mercedes. Lots of 20 year old MBs on the road doing just fine.
 
#3,775 ·
My boat, like many of my boats , is 30 years old and doing just fine , after many Pacific crossings and mostly full time cruising, while my critics keep saying it wont last . They have survived torture tests which would have demolished any plastic boat in minutes. That is reality . What my critics claim, has long been proven to be fantasy, having noting to do with reality.
 
#3,721 ·
A glassed hull to deck joint is difficult to do and requires a lot of cosmentic work on the outside to hide the bonding layer. You could not do a production boat with this detail. But it is common on custom boats. It makes a great joint and proof again that Brent's constant lumping of all grp boats into one category is just plain ignorrant. But you have to give him credit. He does ignorrant very well.
 
#3,722 ·
But you have to give him credit. He does ignorrant very well.
I totally agree. I have to admit, I'm in absolute awe of his ignorance. It's amazing.

Seriously, though, I'm truly amazed that there are people out there who believe in him. I'm a member of his yahoo site and just have to shake my head. I guess it takes all kinds.
 
#3,725 ·
I wouldn't worry about it Bob. ;) I was never much impressed with HIS design work. He built very good boats but his designs always looked to me like the carpenter designed houses I have alluded to in the past. Kind of handsome was about all one could say about the best of them.

If anyone reading this is uncertain of what I mean, compare a Norseman 447 to a Spencer 1330 - pretty similar boats in terms of basic design specs and build quality but the comparison ends there.
 
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#3,729 ·
Have to say, Bob, to my eye I don't think that side port in the fwd companionway hatch housing is working.. esp in this latest rendering. Maybe a clear slider and a 'skylight' in the cover would get you the light without the visual distraction?

Of course, feel free to ignore the nitpick.... ;)
 
#3,736 ·
Gee wilickers Faster. It's Saturday. I'm listening to the opera and watching women's curling. I have important things to do!

What I have in mind is exagerating the curvature to the window. It was looking too orthoginal. I'm going to look at it like this for a while. We tried an eyebrow around it but I did not care for that. Foir now I like this look. Now get your ass out the door and buy that lottery ticket. Buy two.


Out:
We are going with an Offshore Spars all carbon rig. It will be their version of Leisure Furl with all the goodies inside the boom. You won't see anything.
 
#3,737 ·
Gee wilickers Faster. It's Saturday. I'm listening to the opera and watching women's curling. I have important things to do!
Sorry Bob, should've typed 'waiting patiently'.. had no intention of disturbing your weekend....
 
#3,738 ·
Faster:
Not sure. Maybe I have been doing the housework too long.
But there is something about an athletic woman, in tight pants, bent over, with a broom in her hands. " Here honey. Let me help you with that."

If it comes down to watching women's curling or men's figure skating I have to go with the women's curling.
 
#3,739 ·
If it comes down to watching women's curling or men's figure skating I have to go with the women's curling.
As a wise man once said (recently).....

I think I'm with you on that detail.;)
 
#3,740 ·
Brent likes to bash grp boats, so I'll post this email for him. GRO to the rescue!

Hi Bob.
Thought you'd like to know that one of your boats, called SOLQUEST, in Tasmania saved the recently relaunched 1924 8 Metre called VARG from near certain demise last weekend at the Kettering Wooden Boat Regatta. I was aboard SOLQUEST with captain/owner Garth Wigston. He did a fantastic job and the boat performed well, like a boss. Hell-built-for-stout and a design that handled the short, 1.5 meter swell and up to 70 knots like a champ. I'm working on a story right now and not sure where I'll send it for publishing. Thanks to a strong boat, muscular Perkins 120, cool and courageous captain and competent crew, I was able to fly around the boat snapping photos with my iPhone. They turned out pretty good, considering.
 
#3,741 ·
Benesailor posted this new thread today.. with the links to the topic story (a fairly heavy displacement Brewer design done in Alu) and the subsequent links to the 'Restless' project, a large steel build it's an interesting comparison. Both back yard homebuilt over a period of time. Both varying degrees of astounding workmanship.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener...elated/123177-amazing-homebuilt-sailboat.html
 
#3,743 · (Edited)
Gilbert Caroff / Duflos

Have also a look at this one: Not bad for amateurs:

Velero Simbad: El "Simbad"

Velero Simbad: Nueva web de Gilbert Caroff

I find the design more modern even if I don't like the hull. It is an old design from an old designer, Gilbert Caroff. He has much better than that. He is certainly among the ones that have more boats built by amateurs in steel and aluminum (also built professionally). I see lots of them cruising here, mostly home built.

GILBERT CAROFF-DUFLOS - ARCHITECTURE NAVALE

Hundreds of designed boats, sailed everywhere from the Arctic to the Antarctic. Several expedition sailboats.

A nicer one, the Chatam 43:

Chatam 43 voilier en acier a l´unite

Here the building of a Chatam 40. Amazing amateur boat building quality :

Sur la mer avec "boulal" - sortie du hangar et mise à l'eau | boulal.travelblog.fr

Sur la mer avec "boulal" - construction | boulal.travelblog.fr

Here a 37 in steel being built. Also a nice design:

Notre bateau

Another one:

Photos 1

And another one, a 33ft (alu):

Preparatifs

Some pictures:























 
#3,744 ·
Re: Gilbert Caroff / Duflos

Have also a look at this one: Not bad for amateurs:

Velero Simbad: El "Simbad"

Velero Simbad: Nueva web de Gilbert Caroff

I find the design more modern even if I don't like the hull. It is an old design from an old designer, Gilbert Caroff. He has much better than that. He is certainly among the ones that have more boats built by amateurs in steel and aluminum (also built professionally). I see lots of them cruising here, mostly home built.
Paulo, I notice your selection are all chine hulls?? ...but there is absolutely no reason a steel hull - even an amateur-built one - must have chines.
 
#3,746 ·
I'm curious what multi chine and radius chine means for strength. Brent has made much of curved structures being stronger. While I was looking in to this in a more detailed way some years ago a local potential supplier told me if supplied with the right cad/cam computer files there would be no issue delivering plates pre primed ( if in steel or corten) ad pre cut and even with appropriate beveling for welding for either multi chine or radius chine. Similarly pre cut framing was a non issue. Therefore, I don't fully appreciate Paulo's statement about difficulty given these cutting files were being used commonly over a decade ago to guide the plasma cutter or other technique to cut the metal before delivery to the builder. Personally just think the radius chine boats are prettier.
 
#3,748 · (Edited)
No, I don't think so. Radiused chine is a method for using many small chines to make a hull that looks like a rounded hull and that is not the case with those hulls.

Article - Radius chine metal boat building

... Therefore, I don't fully appreciate Paulo's statement about difficulty given these cutting files were being used commonly over a decade ago to guide the plasma cutter or other technique to cut the metal before delivery to the builder. Personally just think the radius chine boats are prettier.
I did not state anything like that. Just said that most steel or aluminium home boat builders use chined hulls, meaning boat plans with chined hulls. I assume that it is due to being cheaper or easier because they certainly know a lot more than me about building a metal boat, costs and hardships.

Regards

Paulo
 
#3,858 ·
A builder of "Stewed" boats? Sounds like some real hot boats! And Bob cricizes my typing? Bob has given us many more examples of his typing skills.
My boat has a radiused chine, as have several more of my boats. Its not all that hard to do ,after the hull has been pulled together , and braced across the cutout for the radiused parts. Its only 14 feet of chine per side, in a 36 footer.An extra week of work , altho few have considerd the advantage worth the trouble . With chines entirely below the waterline ,the aesthetic advantage would be minimal. With the water flow at that point being almost paralell with the chines, a small radius would be just as effective as a large one, for reduction of turbulance. As, if the boat were to go aground ,that would be one of only two points which would touch , in most cases, using a far heavier plate there would be a good idea. A heavier plate there would also reduce the odds of distortion.
A round bilge easier to build than a raduised chine? Bob, you are making a fool of yourself , again!
 
#3,750 ·
I have to agree with Classic here. With a competant builder round bilge construction of steel or alu boats is just another day at the office. But home builders try to find the very easiest way to get the job done. They seldom have much experience and their choices are not always the best. You can build a nice chined boat. No problem with that. Chines are fine for some applications. If you think conic developement requires chines then go for it. But you boat will always look like an amateur effort. Some of the boats Paulo posted are far from fair.

In the end it's all about personal preference. I like them all when done well. I have no love affair with chines.
 
#3,752 · (Edited)
Classic,

Is the Peterson 43 a flat deck model? if so, many of those versions from 40-43 that Peterson designed, came in both GRP and Aluminum.

That version at your club, might also be known as a Serindipity 43

Marty
Hi Marty, yep, it's the flat-deck model - in Aluminium - a yacht called 'Eneseay':



I crewed on her for a while before buying my current boat.

It had a hydraulic drive for the prop, which I also found interesting.
 
#3,753 ·
Beautiful boat - I love those flush deck IOR boats.

From the days of "Hardware Wars" - more track than the Burlington Northern. It appears to only have 10 winches though - a bit skimpy for those days on anything bigger than a 1/2 Tonner. :)
 
#3,754 · (Edited)
It was bought primarily for a Sydney-Hobart long, long ago in which it came - well, nowhere in particular. It has runners, which, in typical IOR boat fashion, are an absolute ***** to work. The dip-pole spinnaker setup was another huge PITA for a non-athlete..

..and yep, there's a track for every headsail. Sometimes we'd even switch tracks during a headsail change which made life interesting. Yep, I was happy to leave that boat. :)

EDIT: Here's a MUCH, much, better IOR boat:



..none other than the amazing "Helsal II"... but that's getting way off topic. ;)
 
#3,755 · (Edited)
François Lucas

I guess I was not clear. I was not talking about boats built in a shipyard but home built boats, literally on the backyard on a shed. But there are many that build them with chines on a shipyard and again, all OVNI line, that is hugely popular and are obviously built on a shipyard and very professionally have chines. That allows them to reduce costs and the price of the boats without a significant loss in performance.

Anyway it is more of a aesthetic preference than anything else. Some years ago I didn't like it...now I am used to them.

Since we are talking about amateur boat building and I believe that it is the main market for steel boats as well as for some aluminium ones I would like to post about some French NA that design for amateurs (and shipyards alike) mainly in Alu but also in steel. I believe it makes sense on this thread.

I will begin with François Lucas and his Hermine series, very popular among amateurs and that can also be built professionally:

naval architect nantes yacht designer racing sailing yacht cruising yacht motor boat workboat Réalisations - Designs Croisière

The Hermine 36 and the 40 are the more popular for amateur boat building:

The 36:


[
[/URL]

The 40:








The 47:



Hermine 130



The Tp 44





and just for Classic 30 be satisfied let me put an Aluminium Lucas design without chines, even if most of his aluminium designs have chines. This one is not for amateur boat building but only for a professional shipyard.

The Aventurin 40





Regarding these boats the chines are more a convenience in what regards building easiness but as they are very well designed their negative influence in what regards boat performance are negligible, if any.

This was the NA that many years ago started the "fashion" of chines on open boats. When all boats have rounded hulls he designed a Plywood 40 class racer with chines, not vertical ones like the chines on the 60's but kind of modern ones, like they are used now. Everybody started to make jokes about the boat as a racing boat and about him regarding saying that the chines the way they were designed on the hull would better the performance. Well, the jokes stooped when the boat start winning races...and everybody went back to the drawing board again trying to understand why.
 
#3,759 · (Edited)
Not again Bob. I am not talking about almost 90º chines that were used on the 60's or on the star class but regarding the modern use of chines that comes not from a building convenience regarding the material that was used to build the boats but from a performance perspective (on fiberglass or carbon boats). And I think that this was fully discussed already.

The Rhodes Penguin class was a wooden boat and chines were used as a convenience in the building process, one that would not have great negative influence on performance. Maybe you can tell us about your fiberglass or carbon boats with chines? On those chines don't come as a building convenience but are designed with performance in mind. That's what I was talking about regarding Lucas. His 40 class boat was a plywood one but after that chines in hulls become the norm on solo racing boats, from the mini to the Open 60's, in carbon and fiberglass boats.

....
Regarding these boats the chines are more a convenience in what regards building easiness but as they are very well designed their negative influence in what regards boat performance are negligible, if any.

This was the NA that many years ago started the "fashion" of chines on open boats. When all boats have rounded hulls he designed a Plywood 40 class racer with chines, not vertical ones like the chines on the 60's but kind of modern ones, like they are used now. Everybody started to make jokes about the boat as a racing boat and about him regarding saying that the chines the way they were designed on the hull would better the performance. Well, the jokes stooped when the boat start winning races...and everybody went back to the drawing board again trying to understand why.
 
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