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Florida is at it again

26K views 129 replies 38 participants last post by  VallelyJ 
#1 ·
Boat/US and SSCA are getting the word out as fast as we can. We really need your HELP RIGHT NOW! Late Wednesday in Tallahassee an amendment to the anchoring pilot program legislation was introduced that if passed would allow most Florida counties to restrict anchoring.

You can read the amendment HERE

We NEED YOUR HELP AGAIN RIGHT NOW because this anti-boating amendment will be debated on the Senate floor on Thursday May 1.

Please CLICK HERE to send an email and urge all senators to vote NO to any amendment offered to Senate Bill 1126 or House Bill 955 - the FL Fish and Wildlife Commission bill.

Or CLICK HERE to find the phone number for your Senator, and leave them a voice mail message if needed.

We need to raise our voices LOUDLY in Tallahassee RIGHT NOW.
 
#85 ·
I'm simply saying that waterman, like everyone else, is allowed at City Dock just as they have always been. Perhaps some interpret the loss of subsidies and discounts as "not being allowed." The winter rate at City Dock has gone up from a couple hundred dollars for the winter to a few hundred per month over the winter because the docks are still full at the higher rate, and to pay for the new bulkhead that keeps the parking lot from ending up in Spa Creek.

If there is no difference, then who cares if a municipality legislates a nearby anchoring area into a mooring field? Is it a bad thing to a: fit more boats into a given area; b: if maintained, the ground tackle is probably better secured than a lot of the hack-job anchoring; c: have some modicum of control over derelicts; d:ensure pumpouts.
How do mooring fields ensure pump-outs any better than an anchorage?

I am not sure where the free anchoring is a back creek you refer.
From R8 to the head of Back Creek there is lots of room to anchor. There are five (5) City moorings in one corner. I've worked my way through anchored boats when I had a slip on Back Creek and last year I anchored out in Back Creek most of the summer.

By the way, there is a good-sized cluster of waterman at the mouth of Back Creek.

And all those boats will contribute to the boating industry and well as eat in all the high priced fine resturants Annapolis has to offer- which all spells out to even more tax revenue.
We're talking about different cities. Annapolis is a culinary wasteland. There are expensive restaurants but nothing "fine." *grin*
 
#60 ·
Could it refer to how many fingers they wave with? :laugher
 
#61 ·
how many more years before sailing is turned into another " instant " vacation option for anyone with a credit card?
I met a couple in Waterford,NY heading south on a new cat,they were new to traveling by sail, afraid to anchor and heading to the Bahamas,with a $50000 budget for the trip.
We saw them all along the coast as we made south. They at the marina dock every night, us going in and outside and anchoring.
A year later they had a website and were giving lectures on "how to cruise by sail "for $100 dollars a seat.
Based on their "experience " yea,ok.
I quit trying to introduce new people to sailing, too many unintended consequences.
 
#62 ·
Last year when I was in Annapolis I was quite impressed by how well the harbor is organized and how they've arranged the moorings and dockage to accommodate sailors. It was quite crowded and a bit touristy on land but that's a different issue. The streets in these tourist harbors are almost identical with their trinket shops and bars.

It's a common theme that fishermen and working people are forced out of places like this. It happened in Port Jefferson on LI. Back 30 years ago when we came in after working all day, wet and muddy from digging clams or hauling traps, the local restaurants were glad to take our $100 bills. It was a great time that I wouldn't trade for anything. But that world slowly came to an end as the tourist industry and the trinket shops took over and property values went through the roof. PJ became just another tourist trap.
 
#63 ·
how many more years before sailing is turned into another " instant " vacation option for anyone with a credit card?
I met a couple in Waterford,NY heading south on a new cat,they were new to traveling by sail, afraid to anchor and heading to the Bahamas,with a $50000 budget for the trip.
We saw them all along the coast as we made south. They at the marina dock every night, us going in and outside and anchoring.
A year later they had a website and were giving lectures on "how to cruise by sail "for $100 dollars a seat.
Based on their "experience " yea,ok.
I quit trying to introduce new people to sailing, too many unintended consequences.
at present rate, sailing will be so commercialized and accessible that anyone with a credit card can participate. at that time it will be so restricted and regulated that it will be like RVing as apposed to tent camping.
everyone will be afraid to sail to and from the dock, you'll need a license and insurance and you'll only be allowed to pay for a dock or mooring ball,as anchoring will be outlawed for your safety and environment concerns.
Oh,wait it's already happening.
 
#81 · (Edited)
...I met a couple in Waterford,NY heading south on a new cat,they were new to traveling by sail, afraid to anchor and heading to the Bahamas,with a $50000 budget for the trip.
We saw them all along the coast as we made south. They at the marina dock every night, us going in and outside and anchoring.
I just can't get my arms around these statements that you're making.

Most people are complaining about how sailing is dying because there are so few new people coming into the sport, but when a couple of newbs buy a new boat (which in 10-20 years will become the used boat that one of us will buy at a reasonable price), you ridicule them. You make it sound like you want to be the only one on the water, and intentionally discourage others from sailing. Sort of like the old guy sitting in front of his house yelling "stay off my lawn."
...A year later they had a website and were giving lectures on "how to cruise by sail "for $100 dollars a seat...
That's their right, unless you want the government to stop them through regulation. I wouldn't plunk down $100 of my money for that, but if others want to, so be it.
how many more years before sailing is turned into another " instant " vacation option for anyone with a credit card?
at present rate, sailing will be so commercialized and accessible that anyone with a credit card can participate.
It's already like that, and has been for a long time. Is there really anything wrong with it? Or are you saying that you think government should step in and stop it through regulation?
...at that time it will be so restricted and regulated that it will be like RVing as apposed to tent camping.
What does this mean? And what's wrong with either RV or tent camping?

And what is your position about regulations? You seem to distrust the commercialism and market expansion that comes with an unregulated free market, and ridicule the supposedly unqualified people that accessibility of the sports affords, yet you also distrust the government that might regulate things to make them a little less accessible and thus safer. You really can't have it both ways.
 
#69 · (Edited)
I'm not familiar with how Admiralty law works with RV's and campers.

And, that's the issue here. You have a bunch of landowners and real estate brokers, who are trying to figure out how to circumvent hundreds of years old Admiralty Law, and they have a s**tload of money to do it with.

And, in the end, they will probably win, because when it comes to politics, the big money always does.

That doesn't mean we have to like it (and besides, I guess there is always the Bahamas and Caribbean and sailing past Florida like we do Cuba and Haiti now).
 
#71 ·
Admiralty law is meant for temporary anchorage, and it is a very overused excuse for squatting by water. I quote an interesting court finding (Canada):
"There is a common law right to navigation which includes the incidental right to anchor. This is not a right to anchor or moor permanently but it must be exercised reasonably as determined by the circumstances at the time of anchoring such as the weather, loading or unloading of the vessel, or the need for repairs to the vessel. The right to anchor therefore contemplates the right to do so for a reasonable time, for a reasonable purpose. Both the right to navigation and the right to anchor must not be exercised so as to interfere with the equal rights of others."
 
#78 ·
You are right. We are all the problem. I lived in Annapolis between 1984 and 2001. Had some good times and good sailing. By the mid 1990's the place was going down hill fast. Got out of town and moved to Hawaii. In the last 5 years Hawaii is going down hill fast too. Time to get out of town.
 
#83 · (Edited)
I don't dislike the folks for being new to sailing, I was mocking the fact that after 6-10 months they were offering advice on cruising.
It is their right, and others choice to pay for their "experience " ,I found that funny that anyone would.
As for the old man analogy, that might be somewhat accurate, more so as time goes on.Except it's not MY yard.
Which leads to,It's not yours either! it's everyones.but it is a finite resource and I don't care for the way it is being restricted due in large part to the increased demand for it.Nor do I care for some of the people sailing, more specifically living aboard traveling, has attracted.
I believe these things have combined to "ruin it" to some degree.
I hope cruising becomes unpopular and most people loose interest in it and give up to persue a different hobby.
I would be fine with that.
Sorry if that hurts anyone's feelings, just my perspective.
As an aside, I used to enjoy riding motorcycles, specifically Harley's.But it became popular and "cool" and attracted a demographic that ruined it for me.
I long for the old days,but doubt there coming back.
 
#84 ·
I don't want or need a damn thing free or paid.
The water and wind is all I use for "free " and God put them here. all the rest is for the land lubbers, by the landlubbers and of the landlubbers.
you're absolutely correct it is demand driven,more demand more expense.
When states started requiring registration fees it was sold ad necessary to maintain "services for boaters " well who mismanaged that money? now, due to increased demand more money is "needed " and more for moorings due to increased demand, and dockage due to demand, and water cops,and regulations and,more and more.
I'm saying I would be happier if and when it becomes unpopular and I am rethinking the approach to attracting others to it.
I'm not promoting sailing any longer.
when people ask me about cruising and sailing I'm going to start telling them it sucks.
when they ask me if it's dangerous I'm going to recall harrowing accounts,and when they ask what I do aboard all day while sailing I'm telling them it's boring.
 
#94 ·
I think they could say it was because boats were disrupting the air flow to the mainland, and causing people to sweat more, and get just as far, as long as it had a campaign contribution check attached to it.

But, like I said, that's because my life experience, especially with people like the ones who are financing and introducing this legislation, has made me think that (I guess I've been retired long enough to say that I used to be an FBI agent, and assigned to a state public corruption investigation unit before that, so I'm not talking about stuff I read in a newspaper).

Maybe it's because my brother-in-law is a lobbyist and one of my best friends used to be one, both for a major industries. Both of them have told me they have had nightmares about walking out of some legislator's office one day after dropping a check off, and finding the FBI waiting in the hall for them. And, both of them have told me the magic words they are told to use, not "this would help us out a lot", but "this would help your constituents out a lot" that they think will keep them out of jail.

Like I said, I had a bad job when it came to learning what people will do, while lying in your face about why they are doing it. If it's any consolation, some days, I wish I could I could go back to where you are. :)
 
#96 ·
The biggest downside to a democracy is being in the minority. For most of our largest political divides, such as Presidential elections, the US is about as close to 50/50 as you can get. Therefore, you never really feel like you are defeated, when you lose. However, in the landlubber v. anchoring vote, we boaters are going to be outnumbered about 100 to 1.

Some laws and rights have been written to protect distinct minorities in society from these overwhelming odds. However, leveraging waterway and navigation freedoms are not going to be persuasive when the landlubbers are truly trying to keep derelict boats away. How about boats that make noise that would not be acceptable from a land neighbor: generators, music, etc?

In the end, there will need to be compromise or we'll lose it all.
 
#104 ·
When I first started traveling longer distance by sail,I had preconceived ideas of what it would be like. What the places would be,and the people.
It wasn't.
The places and people were often nothing like I read about or thought they would be.Neither was sailing.
At first I was excited about the new experience of traveling by sail and wanted to share that excitement with others so they could experience that joy also.
Now, after a few Years traveling up and down the east coast USA I've got the knowledge of my own experiences.
I found that the experience is not what is represented in magazines or cruising guides . Unless you have a pile of cash to unload at each of the places advertised. And if you don't, the welcome at the more affluent locations,isn't.
While I did encounter genuine, friendly people. I found many pariah who seemed to take pleasure in the fleecing of those passing through who were novice. I could recount numerous occasion where I witnessed or was subject to this type of people.
So, now my perspective and attitude has changed.
I no longer yearn to share my joyful experiences,or special places I've found. I'm less interested in helping others by sharing my experiences due to unpleasant unforeseen consequence.
Better to pass along unnoticed than announce my intended course or destination.
It seems many, for whatever reasons, take issue with others methods and manner of traveling.
It really depresses me to see and experience the attitude and treatment many display towards those choosing a different approach to sail travel and life in general.
I feel I made a big mistake sharing my experience and travel ,it didn't have the results I thought it would of helping others achieve their ambitions. and might have added to some of my fee unpleasant experiences.
As,I cannot undo what has been said or done. I can only try to avoid further mistakes of foreclosure by not sharing my joyful experience. and keep more to myself.
seems some don't like it if they see others enjoying themselves if their not puking cash .
 
#107 ·
I don't want to pull quotes and respond to specific people. Just a couple notes:

I just might "get it" a little more than some of you think. I am deeply concerned by these mega-millionaires in Florida buying up waterfront property, who suddenly think that they now own the water that their property overlooks. I hate that attitude that just because you have lots of money and can buy unreasonable influence among local (and national) politicians, and think you can always get your way. Citizens United and McCutcheon are only making this worse.

There is absolutely no legitimate reason to restrict the rights of true cruisers from quietly anchoring in an area, so long as they don't crap up the place by damaging coral reefs, dumping holding tanks, making noise with generators and loud music, spilling jerry cans, taking their boats apart for months at a time doing unsightly rebuilds, or just leaving the boat there and never coming back. But that kind of stuff does happen with a small minority of boats, and even the most libertarian cruisers need to admit it.

It would be nice to live in a world with no regulations, but when population density increases enough that people are on top of each other, some regulation is unavoidable. The challenge is how to craft the regulations in a way that allows the bulk of those who "leave no trace" to continue doing so, and weed out the derelicts who spoil the fun for everyone (and, if left unregulated, could fill up anchorages with unsightly wrecks that cost millions to remove after they sink). And in the end, how to pay for all of that.

So you can wish all you want for this to go away. You might find paradise somewhere with nobody around to bother you, but sooner or later a few (or a few thousand) others will come along and the whole process will repeat itself. (Hence the evolution comment.)

One thing is for sure - the East Coast of the US has an awful lot of people crowding into limited space, so regulations will have to be a way of life. Let's hope that there are at least a few ethical politicians left who can see through the special interests and strike a reasonable balance.
 
#110 ·
At this point I know so little about sailing that I'm not sure where to even start asking questions, but I won't deal with that or my plans here. What I would like to know is what are we talking about with these anchoring laws? Part of what I have seen makes sense, namely proving that a long term anchored boat is truly seaworthy and able to sail. However, what about things like boats passing through looking for anchorage for a day, or two?
 
#112 ·
Regardless of any laws, for or against, it's always been problematic to try and live in, or visit, a place where the people in that place, don't want you, or people like you, around.

Examples abound.
 
#113 · (Edited)
Latest discussion topics as presented by the FWC at the recent 'meeting' at Vero Beach: http://myfwc.com/media/2847550/anchoring-public-meeting.pdf

Personally, when traveling to the Bahamas and 'south', Im pretty much now committed to leave FL from Ft Pierce .... and simply bypass all of SE Florida and the Keys. Its been too much hassle by 'homeowners', local water cops, the over-aggressive potty-gestapo of Volusia Country, the FWC (especially in Marathon/Boot Key etc.) that I really dont need. I say: to hell with visiting and spending any time (and money) in Florida, ... only 'touching' the state as absolutely as minimally as possible.
Id also include the signing any petition for the FORMAL reduction of any US Govt. funding/spending for any maintenance/dredging of tidal / navigable US waters in Florida. Why should our federal tax money be used to 'improve' the navigable waters for specific local (only) enhancement, and where long distance travelers of such navigable waterways are obviously impeded, restrained and prevented free access/use?

I just wonder when all the rest of the 49 states and their local municipal entities 'reciprocate' and begin to aggressively 'single out', specifically target, and to treat visitors/transients from Florida to their states as 'the extremely unwanted' ... as they seemingly are now to be proposing in Florida?
 
#115 ·
Simply because I really appreciate and thoroughly enjoy the neighborliness/friendliness of the 'low country' & ICW of the Carolinas, Georgia and North Florida ... and the 'Old Time' and Bluegrass parking lot 'music jams' there. When our 'instruments' are out, the only thing in the low country that causes us to move along is cold weather. One misses that 'culture' entirely when offshore and in an infernal hurry. ;-)
 
#120 ·
I don't boat in FL and it certainly sounds tough down there. I'm guessing, due to the year round climate, that permanent crappy stuff is more common than up here. However, landlubbers can be territorial and far outnumber boaters in our democratic system. Feels like a huge uphill battle.

That said, I find we have to be reasonable to co-exist. Personally, I would be very uncomfortable being less than 300 ft off a waterfront homes lawn, just for running aground, if not privacy. As we all know, that feels much much closer than that. 150 ft off a mooring field doesn't sound too tough to me, but I'm sure I've been closer in a pinch.

Of course, I do not have a personal appreciation of what is left to anchor in, after restrictions like these. Hope it all settles down.
 
#121 ·
That said, I find we have to be reasonable to co-exist. Personally, I would be very uncomfortable being less than 300 ft off a waterfront homes lawn, just for running aground, if not privacy. As we all know, that feels much much closer than that. 150 ft off a mooring field doesn't sound too tough to me, but I'm sure I've been closer in a pinch.
Mike Ahart at Waterway Guide did a rendering of the waterways around Ft Lauderdale commonly used by cruisers for anchoring with the 300' offset superimposed. That offset would essentially make Ft Lauderdale a no anchoring zone. See Anchoring Battles Reach a New Level in Florida | Sail Magazine .

I think 1.5 x the LOA of docked boats as a courtesy to local boat owners trying to get on and off their own docks is quite reasonable. That is similar to the similar offset requirement in the City of Annapolis.
 
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