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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Problem Turning Windward
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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-19-2014 12:21 AM
Tempest
Re: Problem Turning Windward

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Btw.... In those pics of your jib it's pretty clear that your main is not fully hoisted.. The main luff should be taut and wrinkle-free.
I was thinking that the boom seemed pretty high and perhaps it's a downhaul issue.

In either case the luff definitely needs adjusting.
10-18-2014 11:50 PM
Faster
Re: Problem Turning Windward

Btw.... In those pics of your jib it's pretty clear that your main is not fully hoisted.. The main luff should be taut and wrinkle-free.
10-18-2014 11:28 PM
Pendragon35
Re: Problem Turning Windward

I think your question has been answered (the boat needed a more balanced set of sails). My boat is at Anchorage Marina, near Fort McHenry. I just got it last summer and have been out a half dozen times. All were sailing upwind to the bridge. My own experience is that the wind gets a little flakey there and at least on a flood tide, the current feels like it gets stronger. I don't have any numbers to back it up, but that's the feel to me. We seem to do fine tacking to the bridge, tacking under it is more challenging (Alberg 35/always use jib and main, sometimes reefed main).
10-18-2014 11:12 PM
Tempest
Re: Problem Turning Windward

Charrob,

Your red circle IS the Genoa/jib fairlead. It can be moved forward or aft along the track depending upon how much sail you have out in order to achieve the correct angle.
Aft for a full sail, forward for a shortened sail.

The green square is what we're calling a lead for the furling line. They should all be aligned to provide minimum resistance or friction. The 1st lead near the drum is critical.. it needs to feed the line to and from the drum straight, see the PDF file that I linked to.

Though, your track may not be long enough to get exactly right angle for the amount of sail you had deployed in your video..moving the block as far forward as you can will certainly help. What you're trying to to is to put some downward pressure on the leech. Your second red dotted line in pictures would work fine..if the track extends that far.

The height of the foot off the deck and the angle is cut into the sail by the sail maker.

Racing sailors like deck sweepers ( a low cut clew, foot low to the deck) Typical cruising sails will be cut at a higher angle that allows you to see to leeward under them, not
trap breaking seas, and allow you to sheet in tight over the bow pulpit and life lines without having to go forward and skirt the sail..( manually lift it over the lifelines.)

Your sail is cut lower, it may have been the previous owners preference.
10-18-2014 11:11 PM
Faster
Re: Problem Turning Windward

You've got it pretty well straight.. good job.

Your headsail is cut with a low clew and that is complicating being able to get the right sheeting angle. The other examples are simply sails that are cut differently. Very likely your current sail was not really meant for a furler which will be perhaps another part of the issues you are having.

It may be that the track the jib fairlead slides on will not be long enough.

To your specific points:

You've got the concept of what should happen and how the sheet angle should look.

By 'bisecting' we mean the working portion of the sail, not the full height unless fully deployed.

Check to see how much range of adjustment you have (ie the length of the track that the fairlead runs on)

If your sail does not go full height to the masthead, it would be a good idea to add a pennant to the bottom (tack) of the sail to get the sail higher on the furler.. this will make it easier to get the good angles, and improve visibility while sailing.

Check used sail places and consignment shops for a smaller (shorter foot) headsail that will fit.. you'll be glad you did (or buy a new one!!)

Good job interpreting what I was trying to say!!
10-18-2014 10:43 PM
Charrob
Re: Problem Turning Windward

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
OK.. your issues are definitely all about setting up your sails. The jib fairlead is the pulley on the deck edge track (visible at 1:00m on your video) that your jib sheet passes through. It should be set as shown below, and moved to match what's shown below anytime you change sails or the amount of sail you roll out.

An imaginary line from the block through the clew (lower aft corner) of the sail should bisect the luff (leading edge).



If you have a smaller jib I'd suggest you mount that instead so that you've got a better sail selection - as you learn you can make better use of the larger sail when you can, in lighter air.

Thanks all for your replies. This is really an incredible forum.

Hope it’s okay; I’m going to try to understand the changes needed for the jib rigging first before tackling the main.

In the following image, is the “Jib Fairlead Block” the part that is encircled in red?



The jib that is on the furler is the only one that came with our boat, so we don’t have a smaller jib.

Quote:
An imaginary line from the block through the clew (lower aft corner) of the sail should bisect the luff (leading edge).
This is important information and I want to make sure I understand it. When you say “An imaginary line from the block” do you mean “An imaginary line from the jib fairlead block”? ie: this thing:



And do you mean bisecting it as in having it at an angle that would equally cut the jib in half”? Currently this is our jib reefed:



This would probably be the angle that is occurring now on our reefed jib (so not nearly cutting the luff in half):



When you measure the length of the luff, do you measure from the top of the jib, or the top of where the jib is currently unfurled? That is, the red line in the image below is about where the jib becomes unfurled from the furler and begins to make a small sail. The yellow line below is closer to the actual top of the jib furler:



So you are saying that the angle from the Jib Fairlead Block thru the clew to the luff should appear more like the following? (Note: the solid orange line lays on top the current jib sheet.):



I’m wondering if we are able to achieve the above angle since the bottom of the sail is so low to the boat? The reason I mention is because every single other boat that I’ve seen that has a furler, the jib clew pulls out about half way up the halyard. Yet our jib clew pulls out almost touching the boat. Question: Is that because our jib is not folding properly via the furler, or could our sail just be larger than most other people who have furlers? Here’s some examples:

DavidPM was the first person who responded on this thread, and he entered a youtube of his boat with furled jib: here’s an image from his youtube: you can see how the jib clew is way up in the air on his boat:



Here’s some more images from a video where the boat’s jib clew starts folding out much higher on the halyard:







And here is a comparison of our neighbor’s boat in the marina and how much further up the halyard his jib clew seems to come out than ours (his jib clew comes out where the red line is and our jib clew comes out where the gold line is):



Do you think the reason our jib clew folds out so low is because our jib is larger than the other boats with furlers pictured above, or could it possibly be because the jib is not folding correctly onto the furler?
10-18-2014 07:57 PM
Tempest
Re: Problem Turning Windward

I'm not familiar with the CDI design, But when I looked at the video, that separation between the drum and the cup bothered me. It would seem to me that that cup should be raised to meet the top of the drum, something is not seated properly.

Look at the video at 8:39 and see the how the furling line is being fed. That gap between the drum and the cup should not be there, should it ? I think that edge is also what is eating your line up.

When that gets solved, I think you should be able to get a fairlead on the stantion of the bow pulpit to lead it off the drum at a 90 degree angle.

I looked at the manual. It should provide some additional guidance.

http://www.sailcdi.com/sailpdf/FF1%20manual%207_06.pdf

I agree with John, you guys have a great sailing spirit...these are simple mechanical issues that once addressed will make your sailing so much more pleasurable!
10-18-2014 06:08 PM
ccriders
Re: Problem Turning Windward

Re lazy jacks. After I have lowered and secured my mainsail, I stow the lazy jacks, that way they do not interfere with raising and adjusting the shape of the main.
I believe you have a Cruising Designs furler. If so, they are simplicity personified. While your troubles furling are probably the furling line and its fairleads, the furler itself could be fouled with salt in the bearings. You can check this by removing the jib sheet and rotating the whole thing sail and furler. If there is resistance then the unit needs to be inspected and flushed out if indeed it is salted up. You can go to the CD website and download a manual for you system and that will help you sort out these issues.
Also, you have probably discovered by now that rolling up a jib more than about 20% is about the max and still get half way decent sail shape, so the recommendation to get a smaller jib is right on target. With a 135% Genoa you can only get down to about 115% and then the luff gets too loose and won't steer the boat close to the wind. A working jib 95-100% will let you reduce down to almost storm jib size and still give you a decent shape. Such a sail will be your primary jib on the cusps of the season - spring and fall - when you have higher winds than in the summer.
While all of your problems surely come from the set of you sails, remember that currents around headlands can be faster or slower and give a different set than will be found in the middle of the channel, so if you are having to motor in because of wind and current, poke around and see if you can find a route of less resistance. But as said above, sometimes you just can't get there from here.
You guys seem to have a good spirit about this sailing gambit, keep at it and soon enough it'll all come together for you.
John
10-18-2014 02:29 PM
Tempest
Re: Problem Turning Windward

Charrob,

I've only read parts of the whole thread, so I apologize if this has been mentioned.

Looking at your video, you have a number of issues with your running rigging that need correcting.

Number 1 on the list is that the furling line needs to be replaced immediately. In your video at 1:44 you can see that the cover is off in that section, gathered up and the core is exposed. That's a crisis waiting to happen.

It also appears to me that the furling line is not attached to the drum properly. You should also have a lead nearer the drum to lead it at the proper angle to and from the drum. One of the leads you do have is canted and is creating unnecessary friction.

Your boom appears to have a cheek block for reefing lines, I couldn't see if you had the rest of the hardware ie padeyes and cleats on the boom.

I wonder if one of your sailing neighbors would be willing to spend some time going over your rigging with you. Perhaps one of the Sailnet members nearby would be willing to stop by, and show you how to use it. Your sailing experience will improve 1000% once you get your running rigging squared away.

edit. I just viewed your video again. It looks like you have 4 holes on the starboard side of your boom aft, where a cheek block for reefing the clew may have once lived. It also looks like you may have a downhaul on the gooseneck? which would allow you to pull the boom down and take those creases out of the mainsail luff ( the un-reefed sailing part of your vid) Assuming your main halyard is tight.

I would also loosen the lazy jacks some, when your sail is raised, so they don't chafe the sail and affect sail shape.
10-18-2014 02:28 PM
Sailormon6
Re: Problem Turning Windward

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charrob View Post
Are there situations like this where sailing in high wind and currents is just not possible and where using the motor is the only choice?
I won't repeat the good advice you have already been given.

The answer to the above question is "Yes." I have been on the IC Waterway trying to make headway against a current that was running about 7.5 kts, on a boat that was only capable of making about 7.5 kts at full throttle. Your only choice is to anchor until the current subsides.

I have been on the Bay on a smallish sailboat when it was driving to windward against strong winds and a heavy chop. The boat had broken hardware and couldn't raise the mainsail, so we were motorsailing with the jib only. As the waves smashed the bow, they brought the boat nearly to a stop. We made such little progress that we decided we didn't have enough fuel to make it to our destination, so we turned downwind and found a place to stay the night, and then continued our trip after the conditions became more favorable. Sometimes, on a sailboat, you just can't get to your destination, and you have to be prepared to find an alternative.

Generally, the sails are capable of providing more driving force than the motor. If you're really having a hard time gaining ground to windward, try reducing sail area a bit, and starting the motor, and motorsailing. The combined power of the sails and the motor can help drive the boat against the wind and waves. But don't hesitate to take an alternative, if you find that you just can't get there, and don't wait until you are out of fuel to make your alternative choice.
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