|Topic Review (Newest First)|
|08-15-2008 05:20 AM|
Originally Posted by k1vsk View Post
|08-15-2008 05:04 AM|
Originally Posted by nolatom View Post
|08-14-2008 10:46 PM|
Originally Posted by xort View Post
Putting "paid in full' on the check serves no purpose other than make you feel good. If that there the case, everyone who wants to defraud a merchant would write that phrase on every (underpaid) check. In fact, the only value that phrase might have is in documenting to a court that you paid a merchant/retailer/contractor by providing documentation that the merchant/retailer/contractor wrote "paid in full". You writing it and someone cashing it proves nothing.
Most states require lien notification.
What stops you from putting a frivilous lien on my boat "for whatever reason" is, as I said before, I can sue you for treble damages and likely win!
That should stop you...
The bigger issue is why anyone would seek legal advice on the internet?
|08-14-2008 09:50 PM|
Salvage seems to have lots of urban legends about it which are believed by supposedly knowledgeable people. Read the cases and you'll see that there are a host of factors required to constitute "salvage", and even if met, there are a bunch more factors (called the Blackwall factors from a case with that name) that determine whether the salvor gets big money or pocket change. Low-order salvage may get the claimant no more than a reasonable towage fee. High-order salvage (great peril to saved vessel, costly loss successfully avoided, great risk to salvor's equipment/vessel, great skill by salvor, and the service was voluntarily undertaken, etc).
No peril, no salvage. Just towage. And I doubt whoever provides the tow line makes much difference when both of you have an adequate line available and it's a tossup whose to use.
Many things may constitute maritime liens, at least under federal law. Salvage is one. Repairs are another. So are provisions, launch service, fuel, all kinds of things that are "necessary" to run a vessel that the vessel owner (or charterer, who can run up bills, go broke, and leave owner holding the bag) didn't pay for.
|08-14-2008 07:31 PM|
Well; the person who told us this pointed out the boat which was about 500 yards from the fuel dock; and I really don't take someone like him to be one to tell tall tales. I mean he has a marine survey company that does very high end work (shipping industry, accidents, analysis of steel hulls for strength/thickness, etc). I don't think he would tell a tall tale about a tow service and he referred to them as "The Pirates of the Caribbean" in terms of how they handle tows to non-policy holders.
When I asked him why the issue of imminent risk, etc was overlooked; he said that without a tow agreement if you ask for or take a tow you essentially take your chances. Imminent risk -could- exist in your slip. If the owner requested a tow he must have been in dire need of fuel to keep the boat from sinking; otherwise he could have fueled the boat himself (IIRC that was the basis of the argument).
The salvage right has been given when you take that line (pretty much regardless of your circumstance). It was an extreme case; that boat that was towed in the marina; but the example makes it very clear that the maritime laws are very strange, antiquated, and are not in any way "fair".
We towed a 505 back across the Richmond channel to Brickyard Cove a few days ago; they had the rig come down and were paddling to get back to the marina. At first they did not want a tow; one guy was steering the second was paddling with one hand. On second offer they accepted. They told us that they were outside the jetty and had to carry the boat across and 1/4 mile up before crossing the channel. We towed them across to the marina breakwater and let them paddle in the rest of the way. I'm sure they were worried about "salvage" claim because they did not want a tow at first. We just wanted to help; and I'm sure they realized that after we asked "are you sure"?
|08-14-2008 07:07 PM|
I seriously doubt that a company would be awarded full salvage value in court for towing a boat from its slip to the fuel dock. Salvage, by definition, requires the boat to be at imminent risk of damage or loss, and the salvor, by definition, must take risks to save the boat. Towing a boat from the slip to the fuel dock doesn't count, unless the boat was in the process of sinking in its slip and only the fuel docks had the pumps required to keep it afloat.
BTW, if you ask for a tow... if at all possible, hand the boat towing you a line, rather than taking a line from them. Generally, it is looked upon as only a tow if you are providing the line—they are merely providing assistance. If you accept a line from them, it can possibly be considered salvage, since they are providing the "equipment" needed to "rescue" the boat. You are best off having a signed agreement in hand as protection... but if the situation is more serious that being out of fuel or a soft grounding, don't let the lack of a signed agreement stop you from getting assistance unless you are UNINSURED. Most insurance companies will take up the battle in court if the tow company decides to try and screw you and claim salvage.
|08-14-2008 06:57 PM|
|KeelHaulin||You think that's bad; you need to be even more careful when working with certain "Tow Providers"; it can turn into a salvage lien claim if you are not extremely careful. I heard one story from a reputable person (he was a senior surveyor and used to be the president of one of the two major marine survey organizations). He said that a boat at his marina on the west coast had a salvage claim placed against it for the full value of the boat (~80k or so) because the owner had the boat towed from it's slip to the fuel dock; and that the salver (a very well known "assist" company) won their case in maritime court and was awarded the salvage rights. Be certain you have an agreed amount contract before you take any tow or assistance service from a tow provider!|
|08-14-2008 05:40 PM|
Took a lawyer to point out my uncorrectable mistake
Keelhaulins reply is the scariest one. Any hack mechanic can file a claim and tie you up but good
|08-14-2008 03:53 PM|
18 posts and nobody took a bite. With Giu gone, look what is happening to us, threads staying on topic, no jokes, no photoshops . . .!
My mechanic does not lean, he is straight.
|08-14-2008 03:18 PM|
A lien can be placed if you did not pay for a service; without a court judgment. USCG will place a lien claim against a boat if the service provider sends a letter to the Documentation Center stating the services rendered and the amount of the outstanding bill. This process is antiquated an no "proof" is required to obtain a lien against a boat; (but if it's bogus you are messing with the Fed Gov). A dis-reputable service provider can obtain a lien too easily if you refuse payment IMHO; with out proving that he did a good job or even completed his work. The only ways I know of to get a lien cleared is either for the claimant to send a letter releasing the lien or for the owner to provide proof of payment (canceled check or court judgment, receipt for payment, etc).
It will remain on the "title survey" until the claimant clears the lien or until the boat is sold. If sold to a private party the lien may remain against the boat; if the boat is sold via a broker he must provide clear title to the buyer so the lien is paid off via the escrow account (the seller receives a reduced amount).
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