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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Investing - Sailing Related
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Topic Review (Newest First)
09-12-2009 09:06 AM
lporcano chau
09-11-2009 11:58 PM
Sailormann The thing to invest in is the fuel cells that we will soon be using to power our elctric boat motors.
09-11-2009 03:01 PM
Selkirk
Quote:
Originally Posted by lporcano View Post
.........Commercial ships are now using wind power through kites.............
Standard commercial ship speed is 23.5 knots. Makes me wonder just where they're gettting all that wind - above 23.5 knots - that just happened to be blowing in the right direction. Jet stream maybe. But that'd make an irregularly long kite string.

Does sort of explain what has happened to that expensive imported lamp I ordered for my wife:
Gee, Mr. Selkirk, we're real sorry, but the kite pulling the ship your lamp was on pulled it a little off course and it went aground on Christmas Island. Oh, no, sir, your lamp's just fine! It's just, well, it's just on Christmas island, that's all. Soon as the next monsoon hits we'll get 'er pulled off and try again.......
09-11-2009 10:30 AM
lporcano chau
09-11-2009 08:55 AM
Bene505 I think of it like this: Electric motors run on coal. IMHO, more specifically, electric cars (or boats) get charged somewhere and it costs money to do that charging. If we start plugging our electric drives into shore power, for sure we'll start seeing marinas charge extra for sailboats with electric drives.

Hybrid cars make sense because of all the breaking that they do. Recapturing that energy makes sense. For boats, I think the equivalent is the extra sail power you have up once you reach hull speed. So, for "old shoe" designs that don't really plane, the extra energy is there to recharge batteries from the prop moving through the water. Owners of sailboats with more modern designs, which get extra speed from planing or partially planing, would be less inclined to want hybid drives since it would slow them down. Also remove from this group those "old shoe" designs that are used for living aboard, since they have their own power needs and are less inclined to have the ability to charge engine batteries, especially when (mostly) sitting on the hook.

The other category would be infrequently used sailboat engines that have solar panels to make a dent in the needed charging, and don't go far from home. I picture these as "non-docked solar day sailors", since it's far easier to store energy (motoring distance) as gas or diesel than as batterines -- I'musing 10 miles as the range, pick another number if you want. Since day sailors seem to be the most likely to incorporate modern hull designs that can exceed theoretical hull speed, they are stuck with solar or extension cord charging. If you are at a dock, it's far easier (lighter weight, cheaper) to charge from the power grid (coal) that solar.

So in terms of investment, where it makes sense is with electric drives on sailboats are:

1) old shoe designs that are not at a dock and not live-aboards, capturing prop charging (hybrid drives)

2) any sailboat that doesn't go far from home and is either
2a) infrequently used (solar charging) or
2b) at a dock (coal-based charging) (using edison batteries, see below)

and let's add in this one too...

3) any sailboat that does go far (>10 miles) from home, which has a generator

So I'd invest in making those options viable for people. For #1 that means businesses that retrofit older boats with hybrid systems. For #2 and #3 that means simple, inexpensive, lightweight electric engines and battery systems.

---

While I'm taking up space on your screen, I'm actually thinking 1) that hybrid sailboats need to use the weight of lead-acid batteries to their advantage with a battery keel. If you are really revamping sailboat designs, use that 8,000 pounds I have as a place to energy storage. That would change the equation a lot by giving you tons of motoring distance.

And 2) that edison battery technology be used along with lead-acid batteries(or any other type of battery that doesn't have many charge-dischage cycles). The edison battery would be used for the first part of discharge and the lead-acid is used for the infrequent final part of discharge. This utilizes the best characteristics of both:

Edison battery: near-infinite charge/discharge cycles, 2% power loss per day, short term overcharging possible in more sophisticated designs.
Lead Acid: very few charge/discharge cycles, 0% power loss per day, no overcharging possible.

All this is IMHO, of course. Hope this helps.
09-11-2009 02:24 AM
Omatako I'd be moe interested about using these "hybrid" lithium batteries for my house bank. There was a thread some time ago about this but I can't be bothered going searching for it.

I was at that time led to understand that these batteries could seriously revolutionise electricity (other than electric drives) on boats. What has anyone to conribute to that aspect (or does that constitute thread hijacking?)
09-10-2009 11:58 PM
davidpm
Quote:
Originally Posted by casioqv View Post
I disagree- I use an electric drive system on my C22 and it works awesome. Total cost was about $500 for an 82lb thrust saltwater trolling motor, 2 large deep cycle batteries, and a promariner 3 channel shore charger. Total weight is about as much as a motor and fuel tank, but the batteries are near the keel instead of the transom. I don't know the full battery life (never ran them dead), but it move the boat at 3-4 knots for many hours. I use it only for docking and for pointing windward when raising and lowering the sails.
This is interesting.
What boat do you have exactly. Catalina 22, what is the displacement?
What motor do you have?
What batteries do you have?

What is the longest you have run on battery?
What water are you in? lake, current, tides how much?

Sorry about all the questions. Inquiring minds want to know?
Did this really work out cheaper than an outboard?
09-10-2009 11:54 PM
davidpm Sounds like everything should work out ok.
ArgleBargle is going to put his money where his mouth is.
If he is right and makes a ton of money he can buy his new battery powered 35 footer even if it cost more.

Sounds fair to me.
Good luck ArgleBargle and if we are racing don't even think of spinning that prop even if it too quiet to hear.
09-10-2009 11:51 PM
wind_magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by tager View Post
I have stated this so many times. The watt is a power unit, not an energy unit. Watts per hour is a nonsense unit.
If someone says 100 watts per hour I'm happy to let it slide because it is obvious what they mean, and it also provides more useful information than watt-hours because you can usually assume 12vdc and see the load they have on the battery bank, and as we all know the amount of current being drawn as a percentage of capacity affects the overall capacity of the bank. If they just used a technically correct measure like watt-hours we wouldn't know anything, and we'd lose the inferred rate of discharge given by watts per hour. I'm guilty of using watts per hour as short hand myself and I'm not losing any sleep over it, as far as I know nobody is publishing these posts in IEEE.
09-10-2009 11:23 PM
Selkirk Watts/Schmatts.....................Yanmar/Battery............Ya know what kills electric powered sailboats? Marketing. They have to market to the lowest common denominator and that's the person who asks, "Yeah, but how to we get home if the wind quits and we're 20 miles from home? Who's going to feed the dogs at home?.................I think we should get one with an engine."
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