SailNet Community - Reply to Topic

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Beating To Windward?
 Not a Member? 


Thread: Beating To Windward? Reply to Thread
Title:
  

By choosing to post the reply below you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Click here to view the posting rules you are bound to when clicking the
'Submit Reply' button below


Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Click here to view the posting rules you are bound to when clicking the
'Submit Reply' button below


Topic Review (Newest First)
07-12-2010 09:48 AM
CBinRI
Quote:
Originally Posted by casioqv View Post
I've only been sailing for a year, but I've been amazed to find that most sailors seem to consider sailing upwind too slow/difficult and tend to motor upwind, and sail back down. Experienced sailors are surprised when I tell them I sailed (rather than motored) anyplace against the prevailing winds. Even racers seem to mostly motor upwind if they're not in a race at the time. Why is this?

I find beating to be one of the easiest and most relaxing points of sail, since there's no worry about gybing, and heel angle can be reduced in a gust quickly, by just pointing a bit higher without adjusting sails.

I realize it's a bit slower than other points of sail- but if I wanted to get someplace quickly I wouldn't be sailing at all. My VMG might be ~3 knots at best directly upwind, compared to ~6 knots on other points of sail- both very slow compared to powerboats which can plane at ~30 knots.

I find sailing upwind to be much more fun, relaxing, have a better motion, and much cheaper (no fuel) than motoring directly upwind. I can't see myself motoring to windward unless there was some reason I couldn't sail (too much or too little wind, broken rig).
Sailing to wind is also my favorite point of sail. No stress, just fun.
07-11-2010 08:10 AM
Sailormon6 IMHO, the idea that dead downwind is the slowest point of sail is widely misunderstood, especially with regard to the older IOR boats. Although a displacement boat can exceed hullspeed, especially when reaching, there is, nevertheless, a practical limit on the boatspeed that can be generated by a sailboat. Some of the highest speeds I have achieved on a sailboat, were nearly dead downwind, flying big twin headsails in approximately 25 kt winds. If your destination is DDW, the shortest distance to that destination is DDW. If the wind is so strong that reaching doesn't increase your boatspeed enough to make up for the added distance, then DDW might be the faster way to get there.
07-11-2010 06:23 AM
PCP
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"downwind seems to be the slowest point of sail, at least until you start poling out the genoa or setting the asym."
Whether your boat will be faster (to the mark) going wing-and-wing dead downwind, or gybing back and forth, will depend very much on the boat. The nice folks at North University taught me a long time ago that dead downwind was never the fastest way to go--but I've been on some boats and seen some polars that show with some boats, IT IS.
It just always seems slow because you're not getting the extra apparent wind and splashing, and hte brain is easily deceived.

..
On most old designed sailboats, displacement boats, downwind speed is limited by hull speed and therefore they have similar max speeds upwind and downwind, but they need less wind to reach that speed upwind (the boat movement "makes" more wind).

On most modern designed cruisers you have a "semi-planning hull”. That allows the boat to go a good bit over hull speed downwind (about 40%). On some modern light cruiser-racers you have a planning hull and you can reach about two times hull speed, sometimes more, if you are a very good sailor (for that you need a lot of wind).

Dead downwind is a difficult position to sail and, as you say, you have to use a spinnaker, and that is also a difficult sail to use and one that requires an expert sailor to set it up solo, or a crew that know what they are doing.

Today most fast and very fast cruisers, tend to be equipped with an asymmetric spinnaker instead of a spinnaker. That's an easy sail that can be mounted on a furler. This sail is efficient from 45º to 150/160º (apparent wind), but you cannot go dead downwind with it.

Regards

Paulo
07-10-2010 11:39 PM
tdw re the quote about 'gentlemen/a gentleman does not sail to windward/weather....I can't for the life of me find the original but in the back of my head, along with the odd spiderweb, I seem to recall maybe a Herreschoff ?? and that it was made in reference to a design that was not much interested in uphill work, perhaps a schooner ?




Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"downwind seems to be the slowest point of sail, at least until you start poling out the genoa or setting the asym."
Whether your boat will be faster (to the mark) going wing-and-wing dead downwind, or gybing back and forth, will depend very much on the boat. The nice folks at North University taught me a long time ago that dead downwind was never the fastest way to go--but I've been on some boats and seen some polars that show with some boats, IT IS.
It just always seems slow because you're not getting the extra apparent wind and splashing, and hte brain is easily deceived.

Chef, I think the phrase you are thinking of is "Gentlemen don't sail to windward." It tends to get rough and sloppy and spills the champagne and hors d'oerves, and that's simply not right. Especially when you can take the private train home and let the crew recover the boat.

OTOH, the real sailors I know never light the engine unless they have to. It is noisy, unaesthetic, and burns fuel. Unless someone is on a schedule and it just has to happen...the folks I know use the sails. Upwind, downwind, drifting, sleigh riding...Can you tell, we're not Gentlemen?
07-10-2010 10:09 PM
hellosailor "downwind seems to be the slowest point of sail, at least until you start poling out the genoa or setting the asym."
Whether your boat will be faster (to the mark) going wing-and-wing dead downwind, or gybing back and forth, will depend very much on the boat. The nice folks at North University taught me a long time ago that dead downwind was never the fastest way to go--but I've been on some boats and seen some polars that show with some boats, IT IS.
It just always seems slow because you're not getting the extra apparent wind and splashing, and hte brain is easily deceived.

Chef, I think the phrase you are thinking of is "Gentlemen don't sail to windward." It tends to get rough and sloppy and spills the champagne and hors d'oerves, and that's simply not right. Especially when you can take the private train home and let the crew recover the boat.

OTOH, the real sailors I know never light the engine unless they have to. It is noisy, unaesthetic, and burns fuel. Unless someone is on a schedule and it just has to happen...the folks I know use the sails. Upwind, downwind, drifting, sleigh riding...Can you tell, we're not Gentlemen?
07-10-2010 07:08 PM
PCP
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagine2frolic View Post
.... You have just made some pretty ignorant remarks.

...... ......i2f
I was going to leave it like that, but IM2frolic is right. I was just being mildly sarcastic when I have said on post 16 "That's really amazing. That Catalina 22 is incredibly fast" as a comment to your claim that your "C22 goes to windward quite well in winds up to 30 knots ... I've hit 7-8 knots to windward in a 30 knot gust ". By your answer, on post 19, it seems that you believe that I was serious about that.

Making 7K or 8k against the wind is obviously impossible with a Catalina 22. I am not saying that you have not read that speed, but, depending if you saw it on the GPS or in the speed device, you were sailing on a very strong current or you need to calibrate your speed device.

Here you have a J24 speed prevision table. As you know a J24 is a racing boat bigger than your boat and much, much faster. These previsions are optimal speeds:

Speed Chart

You can see that this racing sailor on his racing boat is not able to do better than 5.6K at 45º of the true wind, with 24.3K of apparent wind. With carbon sails on a top boat, probably it is possible to do a lot better, but a lot better would be about 6.5K at 45º.

http://www.j24blog.com/wp-content/up.../j24_polar.pdf

So, you can see that your claim of 8k , against the wind on a Catalina 22 makes no sense (for doing almost 8k at 45º you woud need at least a J 122, on flat water, of course).

http://www.blur.se/polar/J122_polar_IRC.pdf

You say that: "Actually, my C22 goes to windward quite well in winds up to 30 knots with a heavy working jib and reefed main " and I believe ( not at 8k ) but you are talking of protected waters, in almost flat water.

If you travel you will find that 30k of wind on open seas, blowing for any considerable period of time, will result in troubled seas and waves bigger than 1.5 M. As I have said, try to sail your boat against + 20k of true wind and 2 M short waves and probably you will sail backwards.

I like your enthusiasm, but I believe you are making inaccurate remarks.

Regards

Paulo
07-10-2010 05:50 PM
imagine2frolic When you tell someone they shouldn't be in a sailboat, because they are motoring upwind. I think that's just plain wrong. The OP doesn't know the reason, and it shouldn't matter to him. My very first sentence was he is pretty spot on with what he types, but the rules do change when you add distance. That's why I asked how far has he sailed.

What's he afraid about when it comes to gybing? I don't think because this is a worry of his. That he should stay home, and not sail. He should sail his vessel in any fashion he sees fit. Sailing to windward takes less concentration, and it has an exhilarting feel there's no doubt about that. It does get old after days of it. Why else do cruisers seek out following seas, and wind on the quarter?

I single-handed the Baja Haha in 93. Lat38 used my comment about the trip south. That year the winds were mostly from the south, so I nearly beat 1300 miles alone. Then I brought the boat back, and beat again back to S.F.. All of this on a 30ft. Columbia. Once for 48 hours I hand steered leaving Cabo going north, because the autopilot failed. I had to turn around, and hand steer back. It was a hell of a lot more pleasant going with the wind.

Aggressive, yep just a wee bit, and I apologize for that to the OP, and the members. Just don't tell me how to sail my boat. It's my boat, my fuel money, and it's my time........i2f
07-10-2010 10:18 AM
SVAuspicious I fine i2f's post in #23 interesting. For my part, I'm more likely to motor on a day or weekend sail when I have guests that have to be back for work the next day. If I have a whole bunch of miles in front of me I figure statistics are on my side and just sail.

25 degrees is a lot of heel on most boats and slows you down. Reef.

Oh - we eat better than a bunch of premade sandwiches.
07-10-2010 09:14 AM
SEMIJim
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagine2frolic View Post
... his remark was a wee bit degrading to those who do differently. ... Believe me I am waiting to hear what kind of sailing he has experienced in that year.
I think you're taking offense where none was given, and being overly aggressive toward the OP.

It seemed obvious to me the OP was talking about local day sailors, cruisers and racers.

We rarely fire up the iron genny other than to transit the relatively narrow (by our sights), often crowded creek and canal that gets us to/from our slip. But there've been times... if we haven't been able to make at least close to 3 kts for an extended period, time to fire up the ol' A4 and head home. If the wind is going to be more than we're crewed for, down come the sails, on comes the engine and we head home.

There was one time, coming back from a race and it was getting late. Wind was on our nose and we couldn't make long tacks because we were in a narrow-ish passage. Wind was lightening. We looked at the time, looked at our progress, thought about it... thought about it again, said "screw this for a game of soldiers, we're tired and we wanna eat!" On came the engine and down came the sails. Ahhhh... 6 kts right for our next way point. Nice

We'll also motor for the start of a race if we're running late. Otherwise we'd prefer to sail so we can get a feel for what we're going to encounter.

Jim
07-10-2010 07:17 AM
imagine2frolic
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamLein View Post
Would it be less wearing if you were wearing instead of tacking?



Assuming for a moment you're right and the OP has no experience on >50 mile trips, does this take away from the fact that there are way more sailors out there motoring all the way on their <50 mile trips? How many long distance, do-what-it-takes cruisers are out there compared to the number of weekend day-sailing-without-the-sailing cruisers?

I think it's still a valid point if you just limit, very slightly, whom you're talking about. Nobody's deriding experienced cruisers for making the intolerable tolerable.


I believe the original poster was. Anybody can beat for an afternoon. I did it for years where the wind was a constant 25-35 knots daily on S.F Bay. Everybody gets through life differently, and good for the OP to sail & not motor. We have all done it, but his remark was a wee bit degrading to those who do differently. As typed before. Sometimes we just need to get there even if it is just across the bay. Believe me I am waiting to hear what kind of sailing he has experienced in that year. ......i2f
This thread has more than 10 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:07 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.