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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Pearson Vanguard, or other, for first cruising boat
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Thread: Pearson Vanguard, or other, for first cruising boat Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
11-09-2010 02:22 PM
jetboy52 Here is the Vanguard leonem is considering. Add a composting head, paint the formica white and you have an excellent cruiser for the money.

Pearson Vanguard for Sale
11-09-2010 01:29 PM
seabreeze_97 Geeeez Jeff, when you roll out those "War and Peace" BOOKS of explanations, I, for one, glaze over. "Here we go." "Please, not this one too." "They just want a yes or no." Whatever. Who am I to say. Anyway, you keep opening up like this and I might be convinced there's a real human being in there.
11-09-2010 01:04 PM
mstern
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Seabreeze, believe it or not, I agree with you entirely.

For some sailing is about the romance of a by-gone era and certainly a knowlegable sailor with a touch of nostaligia might buy a Vanguard, keep her in reasonably sound condition, use her as a daysailer/overnighter and be served well.

Truth be known, when I am too old to handle bigger, performance oriented cruisers any longer, I imagine myself owning a Tartan 27 or Dolphin 24, putting her in sound condition, loving her dearly, and poking back into those shallow, quiet, coastal corners where the deeper draft boats that I have owned for the past 3 decades cannot dare to venture. That is not so different than my thoughts on folks who want to own boats like the Stone Horse or Vanguard.

Jeff

I knew that secretly, you were one of us!
11-09-2010 11:47 AM
Jeff_H Seabreeze, believe it or not, I agree with you entirely.

For some sailing is about the romance of a by-gone era and certainly a knowlegable sailor with a touch of nostaligia might buy a Vanguard, keep her in reasonably sound condition, use her as a daysailer/overnighter and be served well.

Truth be known, when I am too old to handle bigger, performance oriented cruisers any longer, I imagine myself owning a Tartan 27 or Dolphin 24, putting her in sound condition, loving her dearly, and poking back into those shallow, quiet, coastal corners where the deeper draft boats that I have owned for the past 3 decades cannot dare to venture. That is not so different than my thoughts on folks who want to own boats like the Stone Horse or Vanguard.

Jeff
11-09-2010 11:36 AM
seabreeze_97 "One buys a Stone horse for its charm and for a ''return with us now to yesteryear'' experience."

Maybe that's why they buy Vanguards too.
Maybe that's why they restore Kettenburg K-40's.
11-08-2010 11:37 AM
Jeff_H Jetboy,

I know you like your Vanguard and are used to how she behaves. Any of us, if we own a boat for a while and sail her enough, become comfortable with their boat's iteosyncracies. Its just human nature. But based on my experience with both of these boats, the case of the Vanguard vs Tartan 30 comparason is a classic example of why these surrogate formulas ( Capsize Screen Formula and the Motion Comfort Index) are inadequate in providing useful information about the relative behavior of boats of very different designs.

In this case, the Tartan 30 has a longer waterline, (especially important when considered relative to length) which is important for pitching motion comfort and tracking ( also helpful with roll motion but less so than pitch). The Tartan has a higher ballast ratio carried lower in a deeper keel, and offers better hull modeling from a roll comfort, stability, and dampening standpoint, and yet the formulas would seem to suggest that the Vanguard would be more stable and comfortable. Sailing both, I can assure you that the formulas are wrong on this. If you spend time comparing the Vanguard you must admit that the Vanguard rolls through wider angles than most boats of that era, (and later eras as well) and that the same hull shape that causes the Vanguard to stiffen up at 15-20 degrees of heel also results in a bit of a jaring motion at the edges of the roll.

But to explain why generically I say that the Capsize Screen Formula and the Motion Comfort Index are useless....

First of all both of these formulas were developed at a time when boats were a lot more similar to each other than they are today. These formulas had limited utility in comparing boats other than those which are very similar in weight and buoyancy distribution to each other. Neither formula contains almost any of the real factors that control motion comfort, the likelihood of capsize, or seaworthiness. Neither formula contains such factors as the vertical center of gravity or buoyancy, neither contains weight or buoyancy distribution (of the hull both below and above the waterline), the extent to which the beam of the boat is carried fore and aft, and neither contains any data on dampening, all of which are the major factors that actually control motion comfort or the likelihood of capsize.


I typically give this example to explain just how useless and dangerously misleading these formulas can be. If we had two boats that were virtually identical except that one had a 500 pound weight at the top of the mast. (Yes, I know that no one would install a 500 lb weight at the top of the mast.) The boat with the weight up its mast would appear to be less prone to capsize under the capsize screen formula, and would appear to be more comfortable under the Motion Comfort ratio. Nothing would be further than the truth.


And while this example would clearly appear to be so extreme as to be worthy of dismissal, in reality, if you had two boats, one with a very heavy interior, shoal draft, its beam carried towards the ends of the boat near the deck line, a heavy deck and cabin, a very heavy rig, heavy deck hardware,and the resultant comparatively small ballast ratio made up of low density ballast. And if we compare that to a boat that is lighter overall, but it has a deep draft keel, with a higher ballast ratio, the bulk of the ballast carried in a bulb, its maximum beam carried to a short length of the deck so that there was less deck area near the maximum beam, a lighter weight hull, deck and interior as well as a lighter, but taller rig, it would be easy to see that the second boat would potentially have less of a likelihood of being capsized, and it is likely that the second boat would roll and pitch through a smaller angle, and would probably have better dampening and so roll and pitch at a similar rate to the heavier boat, in other words offer a better motion comfort....And yet, under the Capsize Screen Formula and the Motion Comfort Index it would appear that the first boat would be less prone to capsize and have a better motion when obviously this would not be the case.
Respectfully,
Jeff
11-08-2010 09:55 AM
jetboy52 I used to singlehand my Vanguard all the time, in weather where I was the only one out. The Vanguard has a very seakindly motion in weather, which gives you a real feeling of confidence. The "motion comfort" ratio for a Vanguard is 34.57, while it is 24.06 for a Tarten 30 (a higher number is more comfortable). The capsize ratio for the Vanguard is 1.67, while it is 1.94 for the Tartan 30. The rule of thumb is the capsize ratio should be below 2.0 for offshore work. Plus the Vanguard has very pretty lines. I think you can track the decline of western civilization by the changes in sailboat hull shapes over the last 50 years.
11-07-2010 10:25 AM
mstern I can certainly understand your attraction to the Vanguard; to me, the Vanguard epitomizes the CCA-inspired look of a coastal cruiser of that era. To me, it is what a boat should look like. As my wife says, "It looks like Popeye's boat". Although she doesn't mean it as a compliment, I really "feel" the Vanguards/Tritons/Seabreezes, and their ilk. Just seeing a picture of one makes me want to sail away to Block or Martha's Vinyard or downeast.

However, I have to echo something Jeff H said. Although my experience on a Vanguard is nothing compared to his, I did go sailing on one once. The breeze was stiff but not overly so at about 15 knots. Seas were very flat for the conditions, and what with the full keel and (I thought) heavy displacement), I was expecting a stately ride. I was quite surprised when the boat went over on her ear almost immediately. She stiffened up once over, but man, that was weird for me. This boat that I thought monster heavy and full keeled was heeling more than my Catalina 22 (my boat at the time) would be! And talk about weather helm... yikes. I had the owner let out the traveller to the end of its run so I could hang on for more than a few minutes without cramping up. It was a fun, exciting sail, but I not something I would want to have to go thru on a multi-day cruise.

If you really like the look of the Vanguard, but want to avoid some of the pitfalls of the full keel/barndoor rudder, check out the Pearson Renegade. She's smaller (27'), but has a split underbody with a spade rudder and separated fin keel. Above the waterline, she has the overhangs and springy sheer of the Vanguard-style boats. You can get one for about half of your budget, and spend the rest paying someone else to upgrade her for you. Best of luck!
11-07-2010 07:57 AM
JimsCAL At under $20K, almost any 30-35 footer is going to need some work. That said, there are lots of boats from the 70s and into the early 80s that will fit your criiteria. For cruising LIS to Block and the Vineyard, a 30 footer is fine. My wife and i did it for 10 years in a Pearson 26.

Since winds on LIS are light during the summer, a somewhat newer racer/cruiser will allow more time sailing and less time motoring. A boat that has had the engine replaced in the last 10 years plus newer sails and no major structural issues is what you should be looking for. Read SD's sticky on boat inspection tips on this forum before you out looking.
11-06-2010 11:51 PM
HDChopper Thank you jeff !
now I can throw away the first love I had in boats the Pearson Vanguard & start using my brain better ... really thanks .
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