SailNet Community - Reply to Topic

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > Amazing outboard feature
 Not a Member? 


Thread: Amazing outboard feature Reply to Thread
Title:
  

By choosing to post the reply below you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Click here to view the posting rules you are bound to when clicking the
'Submit Reply' button below


Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Click here to view the posting rules you are bound to when clicking the
'Submit Reply' button below


Topic Review (Newest First)
07-16-2011 07:27 PM
dabnis
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
That's pretty typical, and it is 5-20 times less than additives formulated to absorb water. Sounds OK.

The reality is that most small engines die from other things than cylinder wear. Sailboat kickers die of corrosion and lack of use. Same with most snow blowers and chainsaws. We get sick of fooling with other non-use problems before real hours pile up.
OK, sounds good, I think I will stay with it. As mentioned earlier I put some water in gas, added some Berryman's addetive and the water became invisible, I think you said it evaporated, anyway it's gone from sight. I am doing the evaporation test mentioned earlier, half a coffee can of gas, surprised it evaporates so slowly. Thanks again for the info.

Dabnis
07-16-2011 05:56 PM
pdqaltair
Quote:
Originally Posted by dabnis View Post
PD,

Thanks for the reply. Berryman's recommends 1 oz per gallon. Do you think that is a "safe" ratio? I have been using it for years in off road motorcycles, outboards, snow blowers, generator and cars and have not had any fuel related problems except for the time I forgot to drain the carb on one of my outboards. However, your comments about lubrication effectiveness raises some concerns.

Thanks, Dabnis
That's pretty typical, and it is 5-20 times less than additives formulated to absorb water. Sounds OK.

The reality is that most small engines die from other things than cylinder wear. Sailboat kickers die of corrosion and lack of use. Same with most snow blowers and chainsaws. We get sick of fooling with other non-use problems before real hours pile up.
07-16-2011 04:52 PM
dabnis
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
As it turns out, 2-butoxyethanol is very similar to cellosolve. Commonly used as degreasers (it is the smell you notice in Formula 409), these chemicals will help clean deposits in engines and carburetors, and they have some function as co-solvents, holding alcohol/water/gasoline mixtures together. They can also strip paint and destroy hoses and gaskets, even those formulated for gasoline and alcohols. They are relatively safe at the typical recommended dosage rates, though aggressive additives have been implicated in elastomer failures.

The fallacy is this; yes, it is possible to add enough chemical and soap to the fuel to hold the water in solution, but it takes a lot, not the small doses we are used to seeing in fuel additives. We did test 2 products like this. Typically, the required dose was as much as 20:1 (greater than the 50:1 2-stroke oil dose) and we were VERY uncomfortable adding emulsifiers in such large doses. Unless the additive manufacturer is prepared to run engine durability tests with a manufacturer and get the seal of approval, I think such treatments are risky and unwarranted. The risk to lubrication effectiveness is far too high.
PD,

Thanks for the reply. Berryman's recommends 1 oz per gallon. Do you think that is a "safe" ratio? I have been using it for years in off road motorcycles, outboards, snow blowers, generator and cars and have not had any fuel related problems except for the time I forgot to drain the carb on one of my outboards. However, your comments about lubrication effectiveness raises some concerns.

Thanks, Dabnis
07-16-2011 03:40 PM
pdqaltair
Quote:
Originally Posted by dabnis View Post
I was looking at the ingrediants of Berryman's B-12 Fuel Additive:
Toluene(108-88-3)
Methanol (67-56-1)
Acetone (67-64-1)
2- Butoxethanol (111-76-2)
Mixed Xylenes (1330-20-7)
Isopropanol (67-63-0)
Methyl Ethyl Ketone (78-93-3)

Curious as to what all that stuff is and what it does?

Thanks, Dabnis
As it turns out, 2-butoxyethanol is very similar to cellosolve. Commonly used as degreasers (it is the smell you notice in Formula 409), these chemicals will help clean deposits in engines and carburetors, and they have some function as co-solvents, holding alcohol/water/gasoline mixtures together. They can also strip paint and destroy hoses and gaskets, even those formulated for gasoline and alcohols. They are relatively safe at the typical recommended dosage rates, though aggressive additives have been implicated in elastomer failures.

The fallacy is this; yes, it is possible to add enough chemical and soap to the fuel to hold the water in solution, but it takes a lot, not the small doses we are used to seeing in fuel additives. We did test 2 products like this. Typically, the required dose was as much as 20:1 (greater than the 50:1 2-stroke oil dose) and we were VERY uncomfortable adding emulsifiers in such large doses. Unless the additive manufacturer is prepared to run engine durability tests with a manufacturer and get the seal of approval, I think such treatments are risky and unwarranted. The risk to lubrication effectiveness is far too high.
07-16-2011 12:45 PM
dabnis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flybyknight View Post
May I respectfully suggest that you look at butyl cellosolve.

Dick
I was looking at the ingrediants of Berryman's B-12 Fuel Additive:
Toluene(108-88-3)
Methanol (67-56-1)
Acetone (67-64-1)
2- Butoxethanol (111-76-2)
Mixed Xylenes (1330-20-7)
Isopropanol (67-63-0)
Methyl Ethyl Ketone (78-93-3)

Curious as to what all that stuff is and what it does?

Thanks, Dabnis
07-15-2011 09:56 AM
Flybyknight
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
I did a study for Practical Sailor Magazine a few years ago. NONE of the additives had ANY material effect on e-10 separation. They may do other things, but they DO NOT prevent separation.
Yes, I suspect you were getting occasional e-10 separation. The best cure is to keep the tank full and the vent closed when possible.
I.
May I respectfully suggest that you look at butyl cellosolve.

Dick
07-13-2011 12:26 PM
dabnis
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
You won't see any water when you dry a sample; it will evaporate along with the ethanol as an azeotrope (Azeotrope - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). That is the thing about ethanol and water; they like each other far more than they like gasoline.
OK, kind of like magic. Main thing is that the water is gone.

Thanks for the reply, Dabnis
07-12-2011 09:55 PM
pdqaltair
Quote:
Originally Posted by dabnis View Post
I should have been more specific "B-12" meant to say "Berryman's B-12 fuel additive" I checked the mixture today after it warmed up a little, can't see any trace of the water. So, I am wondering, did it evaporate from the top or is the water still in suspension in the gas?

Thanks, Dabnis
You won't see any water when you dry a sample; it will evaporate along with the ethanol as an azeotrope (Azeotrope - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). That is the thing about ethanol and water; they like each other far more than they like gasoline.
07-12-2011 07:36 PM
dnf777 I run my carb dry if I'm not planning on using in within a week. I have occasionally forgotten to do so when distracted, and it has been fine over three outboards and 25 years that way. Plus, the garage flushes usually take care of that in the fall anyway. I think new gasolines are much more stable, and less prone to varnishing.

Unless I've run the carb dry, or switching tanks, I never touch the bulb. No need to.
07-12-2011 04:45 PM
dabnis
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
Not surprising. With e-10 at summer temperatures about 1.6 ounces of water will dissolve in 2.5 gallons, and what you describe is the way it looks. The moment you pass the threshold, ALL of the alcohol (about a quart) will come out in 10 minutes. B-12 (biodiesel) should have little effect, except that the biodiesel is less oxidativly stable than other 2-stroke oils (the biodiesel could be the problem).
I should have been more specific "B-12" meant to say "Berryman's B-12 fuel additive" I checked the mixture today after it warmed up a little, can't see any trace of the water. So, I am wondering, did it evaporate from the top or is the water still in suspension in the gas?

Thanks, Dabnis
This thread has more than 10 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:38 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.